A Three-Word Rebellion to Fuel Your Great Work with Dr. Michelle Mazur | UYGW09

Unknown: 00:00:00

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about

Unknown: 00:00:04

doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr.

Unknown: 00:00:08

Amanda Kroll, a cognitive psychologist, speaker, coach,

Unknown: 00:00:13

and the creator of the aligned time journals. Every week on

Unknown: 00:00:18

this podcast, we are asking the big questions. What is great

Unknown: 00:00:22

work? And why does it matter so much to us? What does it take to

Unknown: 00:00:26

do more of your great work without sacrificing everything

Unknown: 00:00:31

else? And how does the world change when more people are

Unknown: 00:00:35

doing more of the work that matters the most to them?

Unknown: 00:00:39

Whether you're great work is building your own small

Unknown: 00:00:42

business, or managing a remote team at a multinational company.

Unknown: 00:00:47

You'll find insight and answers here. Welcome, everybody to

Unknown: 00:00:51

unleashing your great work. I am your host, Dr. Amanda Kroll and

Unknown: 00:00:55

today I could not be happier to be joined by Dr. Michelle maser.

Unknown: 00:01:00

She works with brilliant business owners who are shaking

Unknown: 00:01:04

things up but having trouble talking about it. She's the

Unknown: 00:01:08

author of three books, including a newly released version of her

Unknown: 00:01:12

three word rebellion, which I've read, and it's very good. And

Unknown: 00:01:15

she knows that speaking about what you do in a clear and

Unknown: 00:01:18

captivating way is the key to reaching the people that you

Unknown: 00:01:22

could help the most. Welcome to the podcast. Michelle.

Unknown: 00:01:26

Thank you, Amanda. I am thrilled to be here.

Unknown: 00:01:30

Yay. We're equally thrilled. Yeah. So I have a question for

Unknown: 00:01:36

you. It's the question I start every podcast with and that

Unknown: 00:01:39

question is, tell us a little bit about your great work.

Unknown: 00:01:44

My great work is all around communication and messaging, I

Unknown: 00:01:50

created a framework called the three word rebellion. And what

Unknown: 00:01:55

the purpose of that is to encapsulate the change that you

Unknown: 00:02:00

want your business to create in just three words. So think about

Unknown: 00:02:06

start with why the five second rule, the four hour workweek,

Unknown: 00:02:10

these are all phrases that we've heard before, they are phrases

Unknown: 00:02:15

that have made us curious to want to know more. And I created

Unknown: 00:02:21

a process that I can guide people through or they can read

Unknown: 00:02:24

a book and figure out what their own three word rebellion is that

Unknown: 00:02:29

message they want to be known for. And I've, I mean, I've been

Unknown: 00:02:33

passionate about communication since I was about 15 years old,

Unknown: 00:02:38

I think I started down this path. But I really believe that

Unknown: 00:02:44

if we can powerfully communicate the value our business creates,

Unknown: 00:02:49

other people will get it, they'll get on board with us,

Unknown: 00:02:53

they'll become the messengers of our message. And ultimately, our

Unknown: 00:02:58

business can be a bit of a movement maker, and out there

Unknown: 00:03:02

doing good in the world and reaching the people we most need

Unknown: 00:03:06

to reach with our message. So my great work is all around the

Unknown: 00:03:11

three word rebellion and communication. It is what I love

Unknown: 00:03:14

and what I'm most passionate about in the world. Love it.

Unknown: 00:03:18

So your three word rebellion is three word rebellion.

Unknown: 00:03:23

Yes, I'm super moto like that.

Unknown: 00:03:26

Yeah. So there's a really interesting word in that, which

Unknown: 00:03:31

I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about, like,

Unknown: 00:03:33

what is it about a rebellion? Because I've seen you I think

Unknown: 00:03:36

your podcast is called the rebel podcast.

Unknown: 00:03:39

Rebel uprising. Yeah.

Unknown: 00:03:40

Rebel. Rebel uprising. Yeah. So there's something about

Unknown: 00:03:43

rebellion that seems to speak to you. What is that? Yeah,

Unknown: 00:03:47

it's really this idea of taking a stand for something. There's

Unknown: 00:03:54

so much like, Oh, me too, marketing, where everything

Unknown: 00:03:59

sounds the same. That all of a sudden, when there is a fresh

Unknown: 00:04:03

voice on the scene, you're like, oh, this person is interesting.

Unknown: 00:04:08

They're saying something different. And I never really

Unknown: 00:04:12

felt like I fit in, in the like, on line, business space, much

Unknown: 00:04:17

like I didn't fit in, in high school. Like I was the theater

Unknown: 00:04:21

kid, the Speech and Debate kid. And in the online business

Unknown: 00:04:24

world, I feel like there are these like popular people who

Unknown: 00:04:27

are really, really well known. And then there's the rest of us

Unknown: 00:04:32

kind of quietly doing our great work in the world and not

Unknown: 00:04:37

getting attention. So for me, when you kind of stage a

Unknown: 00:04:41

rebellion, you're saying like, Hey, I see things and I don't

Unknown: 00:04:46

like them. I think we could do things better. We could do

Unknown: 00:04:49

things differently. We could be doing more good in the world.

Unknown: 00:04:53

And so staging that kind of rebellion is, you know, a

Unknown: 00:04:57

necessary step for people who don't feel They fit in to gather

Unknown: 00:05:01

their right people around them. And I know even for me, like

Unknown: 00:05:04

when I first started this business, I started as a public

Unknown: 00:05:08

speaking coach before I was going into brand messaging and

Unknown: 00:05:12

positioning and all of that. And my first client came because I

Unknown: 00:05:18

wrote this really, really ranty blog post about how not to be a

Unknown: 00:05:23

motivational speaker. And it was in response to this woman that I

Unknown: 00:05:27

saw who like, took the stage. And she asked us all to stand

Unknown: 00:05:31

up. And we did, she asked us to clap. And we did. And then she

Unknown: 00:05:36

said, You have given me a standing ovation. And now I must

Unknown: 00:05:40

earn it. Yeah. And boy, she did not earn it. And that bond, this

Unknown: 00:05:50

ranty blog post about how to do better with speaking. And it was

Unknown: 00:05:57

the type of posts that you're scared to share. Because it's

Unknown: 00:05:59

like, oh, this is super edgy. But people ended up responding

Unknown: 00:06:04

to it. And then I got this email with the blog post in the title.

Unknown: 00:06:08

And I was like, crap. I'm in for it. And I opened it up, and he's

Unknown: 00:06:13

like, Hey, I love this. I'm looking for a new public

Unknown: 00:06:16

speaking coach, I have a big event coming up. Would you like

Unknown: 00:06:20

to talk about it? And I didn't have a business or anything

Unknown: 00:06:22

then. But yeah, like, no, no packages, no fees, nothing.

Unknown: 00:06:28

You're not even you're like, Yes, I can.

Unknown: 00:06:30

I was like, yes, yes, let's talk about it. And he ended up, he

Unknown: 00:06:35

was speaking in front of Barbara Bush's Points of Light

Unknown: 00:06:37

Foundation in front of the firmer former First Lady and all

Unknown: 00:06:40

of these famous people. And we work together on that speech,

Unknown: 00:06:44

and it was fantastic. So that's that rant, that rebellion really

Unknown: 00:06:49

started my business.

Unknown: 00:06:51

Mm hmm. So I'm, I'm noticing that and I'm just noticing that

Unknown: 00:06:57

it's a sort of a positioning against something. Is that

Unknown: 00:07:00

purposeful? Or can your rebellion be for something? Or

Unknown: 00:07:04

is it really a strong stance that you need to be against

Unknown: 00:07:07

something

Unknown: 00:07:08

you need? Both? So I have based this messaging theory, or this

Unknown: 00:07:13

messaging framework out of social movement theory, so all

Unknown: 00:07:16

social movements are moving away from something and when I work

Unknown: 00:07:20

with people, we we name their villain, so my villain now is

Unknown: 00:07:24

manipulative marketing, very much against all the bro

Unknown: 00:07:27

marketing, the scarcity. Yeah, all of like the swipe files that

Unknown: 00:07:31

we see that are loaded with NLP and other stuff that people

Unknown: 00:07:34

don't quite understand. And so that's what I'm against. But I'm

Unknown: 00:07:40

for the three word rebellion, creating this message that

Unknown: 00:07:44

matters. And that encapsulates the change you want to create.

Unknown: 00:07:48

So the three word rebellion itself typically ends up being a

Unknown: 00:07:52

positive message for people. Like, for example, one of my

Unknown: 00:07:56

clients, hers is profit without worry. And she creates marketing

Unknown: 00:08:01

funnels for people. And, like, funnel is such a terrible world

Unknown: 00:08:06

word that people don't like. But her funnels were so radically

Unknown: 00:08:10

different that calling it that was a disservice. So we came up

Unknown: 00:08:15

with this idea of like, okay, profit without worry. And her

Unknown: 00:08:18

clients, right, clients were like, Ooh, yeah, I want I want

Unknown: 00:08:22

that. How do I like how do I do that? Yeah. And that's really

Unknown: 00:08:26

the power of that three word rebellion. So you have the,

Unknown: 00:08:30

you're against something, you have a villain, you have a foil,

Unknown: 00:08:33

but also you're for something and creating a change in the

Unknown: 00:08:38

world.

Unknown: 00:08:40

So once you have your three word, rebellion, what do you do

Unknown: 00:08:42

with it?

Unknown: 00:08:43

So once you have your three word rebellion, you get to create

Unknown: 00:08:47

more messaging. Because it's like those three words are there

Unknown: 00:08:52

to create intrigue, to create curiosity to grab people's

Unknown: 00:08:56

attention and make them think like, okay, she's doing

Unknown: 00:08:59

something a little bit different in the world. But what happens

Unknown: 00:09:03

next, is that, great, you've got their attention. Now, how do you

Unknown: 00:09:07

get their buy in? Well, you need more messaging that really

Unknown: 00:09:13

builds a persuasive argument for your work, and reaches people

Unknown: 00:09:20

along the customer awareness spectrum. Right. So this is

Unknown: 00:09:24

Eugene Schwartz breakthrough advertising. He talks about

Unknown: 00:09:28

like, the unaware audience, the people who don't know you yet,

Unknown: 00:09:32

how are we reaching them? What conversations are we having? And

Unknown: 00:09:36

then how do we get them to have like a belief shift or realize

Unknown: 00:09:40

what the problem is they're having? What are those

Unknown: 00:09:43

conversations that structure this argument and move people

Unknown: 00:09:47

along to being bought into what you're doing and being ready to

Unknown: 00:09:52

work with you? We're not selling we're not convincing. We're

Unknown: 00:09:55

helping people get ready to work with you. And then once we have

Unknown: 00:09:59

that structure, You're down, which ends up being like a

Unknown: 00:10:01

pretty large piece of messaging that you just use throughout

Unknown: 00:10:04

your marketing and your copy, then we can fill in like the

Unknown: 00:10:08

stories, you want to be telling your stories, your clients

Unknown: 00:10:12

stories, and how that all relates to your work. So once

Unknown: 00:10:16

you have all of that, then it's like, okay, you have this

Unknown: 00:10:19

comprehensive messaging strategy that you can use in your

Unknown: 00:10:24

marketing and your copy into your sales. And then it's really

Unknown: 00:10:27

about applying it to your marketing strategy, because I

Unknown: 00:10:31

really believe that any marketing strategy can work if

Unknown: 00:10:33

your message is dialed in, it actually resonates with your

Unknown: 00:10:37

audience.

Unknown: 00:10:39

Interesting. So Michelle, who are you that you would be doing

Unknown: 00:10:43

this work? Like who like, tell us how you got here?

Unknown: 00:10:47

Yeah, so I have a PhD in communication I was in academia

Unknown: 00:10:51

for ever was an assistant professor at the University of

Unknown: 00:10:57

Hawaii teaching persuasion in our University of

Unknown: 00:11:00

Hawaii. Yeah. Was it awesome? or No?

Unknown: 00:11:08

It was not my side. I mean, Hawaii is a beautiful place.

Unknown: 00:11:15

Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's very hard to live there. Because I

Unknown: 00:11:20

mean, you are in the most, you're on the most isolated

Unknown: 00:11:24

island chain in the entire world. Right? Yeah, five hours

Unknown: 00:11:29

to get to California, seven hours to get to Japan. So there

Unknown: 00:11:33

is, yeah, so you're on your own. And the community tends to be

Unknown: 00:11:38

very insular, like, it's hard to break in, it's hard to meet

Unknown: 00:11:42

friends, because they see that how lay, which means white

Unknown: 00:11:46

person in Hawaiian, okay. Like, they'll just leave in a few

Unknown: 00:11:50

months. So it's not worth to get invested. So it was this very,

Unknown: 00:11:54

like, isolating time, and I was single at the time as well. And

Unknown: 00:11:59

it just, when I was at the point where I had to go up for tenure,

Unknown: 00:12:04

it was this decision of like, go up for tenure and commit to

Unknown: 00:12:08

living here. Or leave and try to find build a fulfilling life

Unknown: 00:12:14

somewhere else. And so I chose to leave.

Unknown: 00:12:16

Yeah. And was it just Hawaii? Or was it something about academia?

Unknown: 00:12:19

And it didn't really suit you, too?

Unknown: 00:12:21

Oh, yeah, academia was I love teaching. I love doing research.

Unknown: 00:12:27

I do not love the politics, like I am not a very, I mean, I can

Unknown: 00:12:33

be political, however, like, you can always read exactly what I'm

Unknown: 00:12:38

thinking and what I'm feeling on my face. So like having that

Unknown: 00:12:42

poker face that you would need to go through faculty meetings

Unknown: 00:12:45

was not my jam.

Unknown: 00:12:49

Yeah, I can, I can see that. And yet, you mentioned that you do

Unknown: 00:12:55

like politics. So that's something that you mentioned in

Unknown: 00:12:57

your book, actually, is that you sort of started out as somewhat

Unknown: 00:13:01

political, but your political dreams were crushed in the third

Unknown: 00:13:03

grade. Third grade, that totally changed the course of your life.

Unknown: 00:13:10

Yeah. So I was like, I don't know. Like, I was like four or

Unknown: 00:13:15

five years old and already into politics like Jimmy Carter,

Unknown: 00:13:20

Ronald Reagan, like I knew that this presidential election was

Unknown: 00:13:23

happening. I knew I was a Democrat, like, I don't know.

Unknown: 00:13:26

How do you know you're a Democrat, but apparently I was

Unknown: 00:13:29

and I am. And I just really thought that, oh, politicians

Unknown: 00:13:36

are here to help people. And that was so inspiring to my five

Unknown: 00:13:41

year old mind. So I thought, Okay, this is my life path. This

Unknown: 00:13:44

is what I'm going to do. And then I ran for student council

Unknown: 00:13:48

and I realized that a it was really hard and be hard to talk

Unknown: 00:13:53

to people, which has a little bit introverted and shy at that

Unknown: 00:13:55

point in my life. And I did not when I got crushed

Unknown: 00:14:01

Oh, so brutal. Counsel,

Unknown: 00:14:06

I know so that dashed my dreams and politics.

Unknown: 00:14:11

And yet you persevered and you got a PhD in communications

Unknown: 00:14:15

became a professor. And then the politics again cast your dreams

Unknown: 00:14:19

or changed them, I guess. Yeah. So what what? Tell us about that

Unknown: 00:14:24

moment when you're like sitting in Hawaii feeling isolated and

Unknown: 00:14:28

out of place, and yet, I mean, listen, I have a PhD in

Unknown: 00:14:32

cognitive psychology and I was 100% on the researcher track

Unknown: 00:14:36

period, full stop. No, no train to burn up no sleep till

Unknown: 00:14:40

Brooklyn. I was on my way. And then I remember the day that I

Unknown: 00:14:44

was like, what if I don't do that? But I have to do that. But

Unknown: 00:14:50

what if I don't do that? That little voice right that's

Unknown: 00:14:53

whispering in the back of your mind. What if you don't do that

Unknown: 00:14:55

Amanda? What if that's not what's right for you? And

Unknown: 00:14:58

thinking like That was a very hard moment. Maybe it wasn't for

Unknown: 00:15:02

you. But it was for me like, What was that moment like for

Unknown: 00:15:05

you? Well, it

Unknown: 00:15:06

was interesting because I had several moments going on, like

Unknown: 00:15:10

my mom had passed away. Four or five months prior to this

Unknown: 00:15:15

decision, I had a boyfriend in England and I had just when my

Unknown: 00:15:19

mom passed away, I was actually living in England and teaching

Unknown: 00:15:22

there, which was an amazing experience to live in London.

Unknown: 00:15:26

And so I had broken up with my boyfriend in London, and was

Unknown: 00:15:31

like, No, I'm done with this, like, I'm just done. And it was,

Unknown: 00:15:37

it was like this point in time of my life. I'm like, Just gonna

Unknown: 00:15:40

burn it all down. Like, I am not happy doing this. There are

Unknown: 00:15:45

parts that I like, uh, but it's not enough to keep me here.

Unknown: 00:15:50

Like, I have nothing for me here. And especially, you know,

Unknown: 00:15:55

after losing my mom losing a boyfriend, it was just like,

Unknown: 00:15:58

well, what's one more loss? we'll just, we'll just move

Unknown: 00:16:02

through all of this grief together at once. And it just

Unknown: 00:16:06

made a lot of sense that I was going to leave and do something

Unknown: 00:16:12

different.

Unknown: 00:16:13

And where did you go and what did you do? So

Unknown: 00:16:17

I am in Seattle, that's where I moved to. And at first, I still

Unknown: 00:16:21

was doing some adjunct teaching at the University of Washington.

Unknown: 00:16:25

And I also took a research job at Harborview Medical Center in

Unknown: 00:16:29

the psychiatry department, which was

Unknown: 00:16:33

Wow, psychiatrists.

Unknown: 00:16:34

Yeah, yeah, they're an odd group.

Unknown: 00:16:39

It was it was a very interesting job. I wasn't working with

Unknown: 00:16:41

patients, I was really just doing some like data analysis

Unknown: 00:16:45

for them. And then I moved into market research of the Ford

Unknown: 00:16:51

consumer product goods. companies like General Mills,

Unknown: 00:16:56

Kerrygold. Butter, I, then I was doing some then after that I was

Unknown: 00:17:00

doing work with like Microsoft. So I've Yeah, so it was really

Unknown: 00:17:04

into market research and doing all of that because I was like,

Unknown: 00:17:07

Well, I'm a researcher. So my skills translate, except I'm

Unknown: 00:17:10

also psychologically unemployable. I'm a terrible

Unknown: 00:17:13

employee.

Unknown: 00:17:15

Wait, I'm sorry. Psychologically unemployable. Tell us more about

Unknown: 00:17:19

that. What does that mean? Yeah,

Unknown: 00:17:21

it means I really don't like people telling me what to do.

Unknown: 00:17:25

And the word

Unknown: 00:17:29

Siri? Thank you, Siri. But I want Michelle to answer that

Unknown: 00:17:34

question. Is Beautiful. So funny.

Unknown: 00:17:40

Yeah, I'm not great at taking orders. I always had a lot of

Unknown: 00:17:44

questions. So people be like, Well, I think we, you know,

Unknown: 00:17:46

like, Michelle, you need to do this. And I'm like, But why and

Unknown: 00:17:50

why are we doing it that way? And what if we did it this way.

Unknown: 00:17:54

And so I was always this questioner at work, which made

Unknown: 00:17:57

me a huge pain in the butt, I'm sure to rebel. Yeah. And so at

Unknown: 00:18:03

the same time, I was doing the job, I was blogging on the side,

Unknown: 00:18:07

just kind of because I had all of this information about

Unknown: 00:18:10

communication in my head, and I really wasn't doing anything

Unknown: 00:18:12

with it. And a friend of mine was just like, you should blog,

Unknown: 00:18:15

you should do something, get all the goodness out of your brain

Unknown: 00:18:18

into the world. So that's what I did. And then eventually, I was

Unknown: 00:18:24

at a job and my boss who I loved, he was a great boss. He's

Unknown: 00:18:29

like, I'm being promoted. And he's telling me all about this

Unknown: 00:18:32

excitedly and like my future at the company. And like, in my

Unknown: 00:18:36

head, I'm like, spinning out because I'm like, I don't want

Unknown: 00:18:39

to stay here. I don't want I mean, I was planning on quitting

Unknown: 00:18:43

in the next six months. I was not planning on telling my

Unknown: 00:18:45

employer that soon, but he's honey here. So it was like he

Unknown: 00:18:49

was excitedly talking about all this great stuff. And then he's

Unknown: 00:18:51

like, so what do you think?

Unknown: 00:18:55

I think I'm gonna quit. Oh, wow. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:19:00

I'm just like, not today.

Unknown: 00:19:02

Wow, what an internal compass you have. Mm hmm. It's like,

Unknown: 00:19:07

it's like a dictator in there. It's like, No, you will ask this

Unknown: 00:19:10

question. You will quit this job. So tell me like,

Unknown: 00:19:15

I just I just couldn't lie to him, right?

Unknown: 00:19:17

Yeah.

Unknown: 00:19:20

Yeah, but just, it just didn't seem right. To like, pretend

Unknown: 00:19:25

that oh, yeah, that sounds great. And I'm totally gonna

Unknown: 00:19:27

stay when I'm like, No, I want the hell out.

Unknown: 00:19:30

Yeah. Right. So you have a very strong regulator in your

Unknown: 00:19:35

psychology. And, and a really strong sense of

Unknown: 00:19:38

conscientiousness, it seems like that seems to be something that

Unknown: 00:19:40

runs through both like your lived experiences as you're

Unknown: 00:19:43

telling them to us here. As well as through your model of your

Unknown: 00:19:49

three word rebellion writes like a lot about who are you really

Unknown: 00:19:54

what do you really think stop with all the nonsense and trying

Unknown: 00:19:57

to like force or fake or trick people in to working with you,

Unknown: 00:20:01

and instead just say who you are, sound,

Unknown: 00:20:05

yeah, who you are what you believe, get in touch with how

Unknown: 00:20:08

they're feeling empathize with people like all of this, like

Unknown: 00:20:12

I've always been really aware. And I think because of training

Unknown: 00:20:16

and communication of how my words impact other people. And a

Unknown: 00:20:23

lot of what we see in business is the people completely unaware

Unknown: 00:20:27

of what they're saying what they're promising, and how that

Unknown: 00:20:30

impacts other people how it's received. And I am always very

Unknown: 00:20:36

tuned in to that. And I think I mean, I think that's what makes

Unknown: 00:20:40

me really great. And messaging and communication. Because when

Unknown: 00:20:43

I work with a client, I'm always filtering it through this lens

Unknown: 00:20:46

of like, how would this person feel if they hear this? Is it

Unknown: 00:20:51

going to be like, Oh, push them away? Or is it going to make

Unknown: 00:20:55

them come in closer? And I always want to make the right

Unknown: 00:20:59

people come in closer?

Unknown: 00:21:00

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I think you're right,

Unknown: 00:21:03

that the vast majority of people are totally unaware of the

Unknown: 00:21:07

impact that they're having on other people and the role that

Unknown: 00:21:10

they're, you know, the things that we remember that we carry

Unknown: 00:21:13

forward in our lives that we help to define ourselves are

Unknown: 00:21:16

often just one off comments from other people. And that person

Unknown: 00:21:19

had no reason any reality or any sense that what they were saying

Unknown: 00:21:23

was gonna carry that person forward for years, or haunt them

Unknown: 00:21:29

for years. Yes. And I think what in the interesting thing is that

Unknown: 00:21:32

you've got like that juxtaposition. On the one hand,

Unknown: 00:21:34

there's all these people sort of blindly unaware of the way words

Unknown: 00:21:38

impact them and the way their words are impacting others. And

Unknown: 00:21:40

then what you pointed to the people who are acutely aware of

Unknown: 00:21:45

exactly which words to say, to get people starting to feel like

Unknown: 00:21:50

their scarcity and urgency, and I'm going to FOMO, I'm going to

Unknown: 00:21:53

miss out on this. And it's, it's gotta be hard to be the one

Unknown: 00:21:58

saying, walk away. First of all, it's actually not that easy to

Unknown: 00:22:02

manipulate people into doing what you persuasively want them

Unknown: 00:22:05

to that's why like, 1% of people are successful at moving big

Unknown: 00:22:09

numbers through sales funnels, and really making millions of

Unknown: 00:22:11

dollars. And everybody else spends three to $5,000 trying to

Unknown: 00:22:15

do it exactly that way. And then they fail. Right? But

Unknown: 00:22:19

nonetheless, your voice it really isn't rebellion, right

Unknown: 00:22:23

like that. You should just stop try to opt out of that game. So

Unknown: 00:22:29

tell me what struggles have you had sort of bringing this

Unknown: 00:22:32

message to the world this this great work of yours? Oh, so

Unknown: 00:22:36

many struggle. I mean, it was interesting. So when I first

Unknown: 00:22:41

came up with the three word rebellion, it was through a

Unknown: 00:22:45

conversation with a book coach named Jenny Nash. And she was

Unknown: 00:22:47

like, Oh, you're really onto something with this. You can

Unknown: 00:22:49

call it something like the three words speech and I'm like, Cool.

Unknown: 00:22:53

I don't want to do public speaking coaching anymore. Like,

Unknown: 00:22:57

I like the three words. And then my brand was already

Unknown: 00:23:00

communication rebels. I was like, Okay, it's the three word

Unknown: 00:23:02

rebellion.

Unknown: 00:23:03

And then it felt so bad. Like, it's like, oh,

Unknown: 00:23:09

this is a message that it's choosing me like and who am I to

Unknown: 00:23:12

deliver this? And we, I totally had this imaginary Nemesis with

Unknown: 00:23:20

Donald Miller, the building the story brand guy happening,

Unknown: 00:23:24

because Okay, is the guy that is kind of known for messaging.

Unknown: 00:23:27

Like, if you go into a Facebook group, and you ask, like, I need

Unknown: 00:23:30

help with messaging, someone I can guarantee will recommend his

Unknown: 00:23:35

book because it is everywhere. And so he became this like,

Unknown: 00:23:40

imaginary nemesis in my head, like, who am I to think that I'm

Unknown: 00:23:44

an expert that I am the best in the world at doing this kind of

Unknown: 00:23:49

messaging when Donald Miller exists. And, look, he has this

Unknown: 00:23:52

New York Times best selling book, and oh, and, and everybody

Unknown: 00:23:56

recommends him and he's on all of these podcasts and blah,

Unknown: 00:24:00

blah, blah, blah, blah. And it really held me back from putting

Unknown: 00:24:08

my work out there. Like to a point where, like, I had

Unknown: 00:24:12

multiple coaching sessions with my coach talking about this man

Unknown: 00:24:16

who doesn't even know me. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know me, but in

Unknown: 00:24:23

my head, it's like, I couldn't do the work that I meant to do

Unknown: 00:24:28

because he exists and he has this book, and what I mean,

Unknown: 00:24:31

looking back, I'm like, Okay, this was so ridiculous, because

Unknown: 00:24:35

he and I are so different. We served kind of different

Unknown: 00:24:40

clientele, even though he's just recommended to everyone like I'm

Unknown: 00:24:44

always serving like the rebels, the misfits, the people who are

Unknown: 00:24:48

like swimming in the blue ocean with their new idea, or they're

Unknown: 00:24:52

doing something in the intangible results realm, and

Unknown: 00:24:56

the story brand never was designed for them either. was

Unknown: 00:24:59

never designed For My People, and it took me a while to kind

Unknown: 00:25:04

of untangle that.

Unknown: 00:25:07

How did you untangle it? What did you need to realize? What

Unknown: 00:25:10

did you need to step into?

Unknown: 00:25:12

Oh my gosh, yeah, so multiple coaching sessions and really

Unknown: 00:25:16

monitoring what my thoughts were around him. Like, oh, because

Unknown: 00:25:22

the thought was, oh, yes, the New York Times best selling

Unknown: 00:25:25

books. So he's better at this than me. And my coach at one

Unknown: 00:25:30

point was like, is that true? Is that like, is that like a true

Unknown: 00:25:36

thought that he's better than you? Because he has this New

Unknown: 00:25:38

York Times bestselling book? Or has he just had a different

Unknown: 00:25:41

opportunity than you? And I'm like, oh, and honestly, like I

Unknown: 00:25:48

wrote a lot in my journal like, and sometimes it's just

Unknown: 00:25:51

repeating, like, I am the best in the world at creating three

Unknown: 00:25:55

word rebellions. Like and then, you know, like when you start

Unknown: 00:25:59

just kind of practicing a new thought, you start seeing proof

Unknown: 00:26:03

of it in the world. So all of a sudden, you're somebody shares

Unknown: 00:26:06

about the book and how finding their three word rebellion and

Unknown: 00:26:09

what that meant for their business. And I'm like, Oh,

Unknown: 00:26:12

interesting. I get feedback from a client. And they're like, I

Unknown: 00:26:15

just had the sales conversation. And it was incredible. I use my

Unknown: 00:26:18

three word rebellion. And they were super curious. And they

Unknown: 00:26:21

ended up signing up. So it's like, a way I'm seeing like all

Unknown: 00:26:25

this proof that I would have shut out before because I didn't

Unknown: 00:26:28

have the New York Times bestselling book. And it's, I

Unknown: 00:26:31

mean, it's funny, because I mean, it's a couple years

Unknown: 00:26:34

removed, but it feels so it feels so silly now, but I know,

Unknown: 00:26:38

I'm not the only one. Not at all who compares themselves. Someone

Unknown: 00:26:44

else in their industry?

Unknown: 00:26:46

Right? Well, and I actually don't know the story brand guy,

Unknown: 00:26:49

because I'm not in messaging. But it is. I'm assuming that

Unknown: 00:26:53

some of it is not really that you're comparing sometimes

Unknown: 00:26:57

people say don't compare your middle to someone else's end.

Unknown: 00:27:00

Yeah. And that there's a way that that could be interpreted

Unknown: 00:27:03

as somebody who's like, so expert, and so capable, but I

Unknown: 00:27:08

don't mean it that way. I mean, like, we have this way, we are

Unknown: 00:27:11

comparing, like, I'm writing a book, but my book is written

Unknown: 00:27:14

Thank the Lord. But you know, as I was writing the book, and I'm

Unknown: 00:27:16

reading my drafts, and I'm like, This is the worst thing I've

Unknown: 00:27:22

ever read. Right? Like, yeah, that you've written a book,

Unknown: 00:27:25

you've written a few. So you're like, This is the worst. This is

Unknown: 00:27:28

not bad. This is the worst. It's really a roller coaster. Maybe

Unknown: 00:27:31

yours wasn't like that. But like that for me. But it's

Unknown: 00:27:35

interesting, like his book was out there. He had not really

Unknown: 00:27:39

like, it's not that he was so much more capable. But he was

Unknown: 00:27:43

more just like, all the collateral, all the

Unknown: 00:27:48

testimonials, all the word of man, like, had just built up and

Unknown: 00:27:52

accumulated for him hadn't accumulated for you yet.

Unknown: 00:27:56

Exactly. Exactly. And you know, he was first to market with a

Unknown: 00:28:02

messaging book. And I think that's always a big advantage.

Unknown: 00:28:06

And it Yeah, and it's like, oh, yeah, he's been at this a lot

Unknown: 00:28:11

longer than I have with his story brand framework. He'd

Unknown: 00:28:16

been, you know, doing workshops and groups and all that kind of

Unknown: 00:28:19

stuff for years before I came along and came up with my

Unknown: 00:28:23

framework. So yeah, you do you accumulate a lot, especially

Unknown: 00:28:27

when you're first. And you've, like, I love that idea. Like,

Unknown: 00:28:31

you've accumulated all of this momentum and this capital around

Unknown: 00:28:37

this message around this framework. And so when you have

Unknown: 00:28:40

a little upstart coming in, like you can't, you can't compete

Unknown: 00:28:45

against that. But then that person for me just kind of looms

Unknown: 00:28:49

larger than life.

Unknown: 00:28:51

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I wonder, like, you sort of overcame that

Unknown: 00:28:56

you put your stuff out in the world, and you had the courage

Unknown: 00:28:58

to let it accumulate some and started to convince yourself,

Unknown: 00:29:02

and then you find yourself, maybe you maybe you have an

Unknown: 00:29:05

experiences, but I bet you have that. Now you're at your New

Unknown: 00:29:08

Edge. And now there's something new that you're going to feel

Unknown: 00:29:11

like an imposter about that you're going to be looking at

Unknown: 00:29:14

everybody who's further along with more accumulation than you.

Unknown: 00:29:17

What other things have you sort of, you know, come up against

Unknown: 00:29:20

that are like that, like new edges that sort of put you back

Unknown: 00:29:23

in that place?

Unknown: 00:29:24

Yeah, that's such a good, good question, as well. And so what

Unknown: 00:29:31

it's making me think of is my friend Maggie Patterson, and I

Unknown: 00:29:34

have a podcast called duped the dark side of online business

Unknown: 00:29:38

where we sit. It's really a consumer advocacy podcast where

Unknown: 00:29:42

we kind of break down what we see in them online marketing

Unknown: 00:29:45

plays from like, how things are priced to manipulative marketing

Unknown: 00:29:49

to messaging tropes, like courses, like all of it and talk

Unknown: 00:29:55

about like, how do you figure out if these things are actually

Unknown: 00:29:57

right for you? How do you make informed decisions, how do you

Unknown: 00:30:02

critically think through these decisions for your business? And

Unknown: 00:30:07

it's so interesting because Maggie and I both have this

Unknown: 00:30:09

experience a lot, where we do a lot of research and a lot of

Unknown: 00:30:14

original analysis for the podcast. And then we see some

Unknown: 00:30:19

other online business owner who just takes our work and shares

Unknown: 00:30:24

it as if they're, it's their own. And you and I are both

Unknown: 00:30:26

academics. So we're like, gonna cite sources man, always sources

Unknown: 00:30:31

like right brained and us. And it's always so hard to see it

Unknown: 00:30:37

because I like read something. And I'm like, Oh, I said that,

Unknown: 00:30:41

like, that's my thing. Yeah. And you're taking credit for it. And

Unknown: 00:30:49

that is it. Like, that can be an incredibly hard edge as well,

Unknown: 00:30:54

that just kind of like ticks you off. And you're like, I mean,

Unknown: 00:30:58

and this is a problem. I feel like universally in online

Unknown: 00:31:01

business. Like we actually did an episode about plagiarism

Unknown: 00:31:04

podcast, because it is so rampant. There's this idea of

Unknown: 00:31:08

just like robbing duplicate in the online world. But if you're

Unknown: 00:31:12

the person being robbed and duplicated, it's really hard to

Unknown: 00:31:15

see your work coming out of somebody else's mouth, and then

Unknown: 00:31:19

people responding to them, like, Oh, you're so smart, saying this

Unknown: 00:31:23

thing. And you're like, No, you're not.

Unknown: 00:31:28

I bet that gets more and more common, the bigger you get.

Unknown: 00:31:33

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you know, I often talk about like, Simon

Unknown: 00:31:36

Sinek. And start with why, and how I see so many people talking

Unknown: 00:31:40

about start with why without even mentioning him. Yeah, I

Unknown: 00:31:43

mean, and it's cool. Because like, he's moved on from the

Unknown: 00:31:46

thing, right? Like he's doing a bigger, better things like he

Unknown: 00:31:50

has, like in his company, other people speak about it. So he's

Unknown: 00:31:54

totally like, let that message go and take him a life of its

Unknown: 00:31:57

own. And I was like, well, good on you. Oh, but for me, I'm

Unknown: 00:32:01

always like, Oh, this is really hard.

Unknown: 00:32:04

Well, Simon Sinek also has like a massively popular TED talk

Unknown: 00:32:07

called Start With Why so if you do write your Google search,

Unknown: 00:32:11

even a single Google search, you're going to come up with

Unknown: 00:32:13

Simon Sinek. It does happen. I think more pervasively, too.

Unknown: 00:32:17

Like I was just on a I don't know, mastermind or something

Unknown: 00:32:20

with Bob Berg. You know, the guy who wrote the Go Giver? Oh,

Unknown: 00:32:23

yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he was talking about the fact that

Unknown: 00:32:26

nobody ever remembers, like, so you're, you and Bob Berg are

Unknown: 00:32:31

sharing the same like Cliff of difficulty, that no one ever

Unknown: 00:32:35

remembers that it was his book, endless referrals that first

Unknown: 00:32:38

coined the know like, and trust all else being equal. People

Unknown: 00:32:42

work with you if they know like, and trust you. Oh, yeah. He was

Unknown: 00:32:46

just talking about how like, very few people really

Unknown: 00:32:50

acknowledge that that was his work. And yet it's pervasive.

Unknown: 00:32:54

It's everywhere. No hurt.

Unknown: 00:32:55

Oh, yeah. Like, I feel like when I was teaching persuasion, like

Unknown: 00:33:00

Robert Cialdini talked about that in his book and mentioned

Unknown: 00:33:03

Bob Berg, right. I guess. I have that book sitting on my desk. I

Unknown: 00:33:06

can probably go look it up afterwards. Yeah, let's

Unknown: 00:33:08

check the check the back notes and notes of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown: 00:33:13

That's interesting.

Unknown: 00:33:14

Yeah. It's like, the message becomes part of the cultural

Unknown: 00:33:18

zeitgeist, and then people don't cite it anymore, because now it

Unknown: 00:33:24

feels like common knowledge.

Unknown: 00:33:26

Right. Right. Well, common knowledge. Is that right? Yes, I

Unknown: 00:33:30

agree with you that that's probably exactly what's

Unknown: 00:33:32

happening is they don't even know where they heard it. I

Unknown: 00:33:34

mean, think about like, I find this happens a lot, right? Like

Unknown: 00:33:37

after, what, nine and a half years of graduate school, like

Unknown: 00:33:43

between my masters and my PhD, actually is probably six years

Unknown: 00:33:46

but still right in my undergraduate four years. So 10

Unknown: 00:33:49

years, right of formal education in cognitive psychology. I know

Unknown: 00:33:54

things because I feel like I know them. I don't remember

Unknown: 00:33:59

which theory was the first one to really bring that piece up.

Unknown: 00:34:03

I'm sorry.

Unknown: 00:34:06

That's okay. So yeah, I guess it makes sense that people would

Unknown: 00:34:09

struggle with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and yet, it's super

Unknown: 00:34:15

annoying.

Unknown: 00:34:17

It's really hard. And, you know, for us, it's like, the stuff

Unknown: 00:34:21

hasn't been around very long. So it's not like, you know, the,

Unknown: 00:34:26

you know, it was a book written 10 years ago, or we discussed

Unknown: 00:34:29

this. It's a podcast that came out last year, or we're doing

Unknown: 00:34:32

some of this original analysis.

Unknown: 00:34:34

Yeah. Well, originally Natalie a very different thing than a

Unknown: 00:34:37

phrase

Unknown: 00:34:38

too. So. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, it's so that's kind of

Unknown: 00:34:43

like an edge that I bump up against and not letting like, I

Unknown: 00:34:48

feel like at this point in time, I'm just like, oh, just forget

Unknown: 00:34:52

it. I can't, I can't like, deal with these battles. I have my

Unknown: 00:34:56

own business to run. And if people actually did their

Unknown: 00:34:59

research they would find out who actually said this first, and

Unknown: 00:35:03

those are definitely my people. Right, right. And the interim,

Unknown: 00:35:07

it's like if we want to make change in the industry, then we

Unknown: 00:35:13

need people to be sharing the work. And sometimes you just

Unknown: 00:35:16

have to let go of getting credit for it.

Unknown: 00:35:18

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fast wise, that's wise and hard buys

Unknown: 00:35:23

and hard. Two things that commonly go together. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:35:26

yeah. So But dude, is not your only podcast. You have two

Unknown: 00:35:29

podcasts? Yes. Yeah. So

Unknown: 00:35:31

duped is our seasonal podcast that I co host with Maggie. And

Unknown: 00:35:34

then I have the rebel uprising podcast, which really focuses on

Unknown: 00:35:38

how do you cut through the noise and as

Unknown: 00:35:43

to Oh, your microphone? Maybe got something weird is happening

Unknown: 00:35:48

is echoey. Ah, hold on.

Unknown: 00:35:56

What is going on here?

Unknown: 00:35:58

Now you're back. Oh,

Unknown: 00:35:59

okay. So weird. I don't know what happened there. Sorry.

Unknown: 00:36:04

Okay. No,

Unknown: 00:36:05

it's fine. So you were you were saying about your podcast?

Unknown: 00:36:09

Oh, yeah. So the rebel uprising podcast is really dedicated to

Unknown: 00:36:14

cutting through all of the noise and Bs advice to really help you

Unknown: 00:36:20

build a business that stands out and gets noticed. So I talk a

Unknown: 00:36:24

lot about marketing. I talk a lot about persuasion, argument

Unknown: 00:36:28

building messaging, three word rebellion. Like this month,

Unknown: 00:36:33

we're talking. I love to challenge arguments, like

Unknown: 00:36:37

something that is widely accepted, like your business

Unknown: 00:36:39

needs to be on social media. And yes, the question doesn't

Unknown: 00:36:42

really, really need to be on social media to build the

Unknown: 00:36:46

business. Are there other options? And there's other

Unknown: 00:36:50

options?

Unknown: 00:36:50

Nice. Yeah. Well, I am 100% sure that somebody was just like,

Unknown: 00:36:54

Wait, what are the other options? So if somebody was

Unknown: 00:36:57

like, now dying to talk to you about that, or any of the other

Unknown: 00:37:00

things that you've said so far? How could someone find out about

Unknown: 00:37:03

you or spend time with you or learn more about your message?

Unknown: 00:37:07

Yeah,

Unknown: 00:37:07

so you can find out about me at Dr. Michelle maser.com. So

Unknown: 00:37:13

that's where my podcast lives. And the podcast is available

Unknown: 00:37:16

everywhere. You can also find the book, or get a taster of the

Unknown: 00:37:21

book at three word rebellion.com. And right now I

Unknown: 00:37:25

am in the middle or beginning to run a community project. And

Unknown: 00:37:31

it's very much related to what you and I were talking about

Unknown: 00:37:33

kind of that the struggles, the messy middle of success, and

Unknown: 00:37:37

that's called, it should have been me a project exploring the

Unknown: 00:37:41

messy middle of success. And I'm gathering 20 other business

Unknown: 00:37:46

owners to talk about, how do they deal with that comparison,

Unknown: 00:37:51

those, you know, ah, I really wish I would have gotten that

Unknown: 00:37:54

opportunity that my friend got, like, You're so happy for them.

Unknown: 00:37:57

And yet, you're like, oh, it should have been me. So how do

Unknown: 00:38:01

we navigate through those and get our important work out into

Unknown: 00:38:05

the world? And so that goes for the whole month of March? You

Unknown: 00:38:10

can join anytime. And you can do that at Dr. Michelle

Unknown: 00:38:12

naser.com/me. It's short on a little pond. Yep, just okay.

Unknown: 00:38:19

I'll definitely put it in the show notes also, so they don't

Unknown: 00:38:21

even have to remember, they can just click it.

Unknown: 00:38:22

Yeah. And so yeah, it'll be short, little actionable podcast

Unknown: 00:38:26

episodes that come out every day just to like, give you some

Unknown: 00:38:31

insights, inspiration and help you keep going to get your

Unknown: 00:38:35

workout into the world.

Unknown: 00:38:36

Wow. And are you running that inside? Like a Facebook group?

Unknown: 00:38:39

Or are you having a rebellion over on Discord?

Unknown: 00:38:41

And so I'm actually doing it on Instagram. So yeah, my, my, the

Unknown: 00:38:48

person who's helping me organize it. She's like, well, you could

Unknown: 00:38:50

do a Facebook community. And I'm like, I'd rather not. Do not

Unknown: 00:38:55

love Facebook. I

Unknown: 00:38:58

wish this was a video podcast, just so people can see the face

Unknown: 00:39:01

you just made when you were like,

Unknown: 00:39:04

I know. Like, yeah, like I struggle with Instagram, too,

Unknown: 00:39:07

but not as much as Facebook.

Unknown: 00:39:10

Yeah, I can totally see that. Wow. Well, I want to thank you

Unknown: 00:39:14

so much for coming on and sharing all this wisdom,

Unknown: 00:39:16

everything from the your story and your program and your book.

Unknown: 00:39:20

And just the way that you think about things so interesting and

Unknown: 00:39:23

rebellious. I want to thank you so much for being on the

Unknown: 00:39:26

podcast. I'm glad

Unknown: 00:39:28

to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. My pleasure.

Unknown: 00:39:31

Thank you for joining me today on the unleashing your great

Unknown: 00:39:34

work podcast. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and

Unknown: 00:39:38

leave a five star review. And hey, don't forget to check out

Unknown: 00:39:41

the aligned tank journal. You need support to get started.

Unknown: 00:39:44

Stay at it and unleash your great work out into the world.