Episode 14
Great Work in the Name of Equity with Dr. Gess LeBlanc | UYGW14
What happens when you feel unseen, unheard, and left out of most of the decisions about your education? Well, if you are Dr. Gess LeBlanc you spend your career raising up the voices of marginalized, diverse students.
Gess’s book “Who’s in my classroom” is a guide for educators (and all people) to understand the experiences of students of diverse racial and ethnic backgrounds, sexual orientations, primary languages, and learning abilities. With stories written by the students themselves (through a collaboration with Youth Communication), Gess’s work is absolutely Great Work.
Join us as we discuss:
- Why Gess’s commitment and approach to Great Work deepened and changed when he became a father and husband.
- How he is able to his Great Work while maintaining a happy and healthy home life and marriage
- Why his work has always sought to find silenced voices and bring those perspectives back into the conversation.
About the Guest:
Gess LeBlanc, Ph.D. is Associate Professor and former Chair of the Department of Educational Foundations and Counseling Programs within Hunter College’s School of Education and is a co-founder of Hunter College’s Urban Center for Assessment, Research, and Evaluation (UCARE). For over 20 years, he has worked in the fields of teacher and leadership preparation. A developmental psychologist, Dr. LeBlanc’s research investigates the impact of developmentally and culturally responsive teaching on school climate. This research has been published in both psychological and educational journals and has garnered awards from the Spencer Foundation and the American Psychological Association. Dr. LeBlanc is a sought after speaker on the topic of developmentally and culturally responsive teaching and is the author of Who’s In My Classroom?: Building Developmentally and Culturally Responsive School Communities published by John Wiley & Sons.
As an expert in the field of child and adolescent development, he has served as an educational consultant to various school districts, state agencies, and non-profit organizations including the New York State Department of Education, the New York City Department of Education, the Highland Falls-Fort Montgomery Central School District, the Lakeland Central School District, the Valley Central School District, the Highland Central School District, the Dutchess County Board of Cooperative Educational Services, the Orange-Ulster Board of Cooperative Educational Services, the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Studies, the Boys Club of America, Harlem Center for Education, Inc., Prep for Prep, City Year, Inc., Roundabout Theatre Company, and the Arthur Miller Foundation.
In addition to being recognized for his research, Dr. LeBlanc has been recognized for his teaching and service in the field of teacher and leadership education. He is a past recipient of Hunter College’s Presidential Award for Excellence in Teaching, the Hunter College School of Education’s Harold Ladas Award for Excellence in Teaching, and was awarded the 2013 Distinguished Service Award from the Association for Equality and Excellence in Education, Inc. Dr. LeBlanc currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Roundabout Theatre Company, City Year New York, Inc. and the Harlem Center for Education, Inc.
https://www.amazon.com/Whos-Classroom-Developmentally-Culturally-Communities/dp/1119824133
About the Host:
Dr. Amanda Crowell is a cognitive psychologist, speaker, author and coach changing our perspective on the world of work. It IS possible to do Great Work-- launch a successful business, make a scientific discovery, raise a tight-knit family, or manage a global remote team-- without sacrificing your health, happiness and relationships.
Amanda is the Author of the forthcoming book, Great Work: Do What Matter Most Without Sacrificing Everything Else, and the creator of the Great Work Journals. Amanda's TEDx talk has received more than a million views and has been featured on TED's Ideas blog and Ted Shorts.
Her ideas have also been featured on NPR, Al Jazeera, The Wall Street Journal, Quartz, and Thrive Global.
Sponsored By The Aligned Time Journal
The Unleashing Your Great Work podcast is sponsored by the Aligned Time Journal! The Aligned Time Journal is here to answer the question "But HOW?" How can we figure out what our Great Work is? How can we get started, stay with it, and finish our Great Work so it can go out in the world and have an impact?
Click here to learn more, and try it out for yourself!
For more information about the Unleashing YOUR Great Work podcast or to learn more about Dr. Amanda Crowell, check out my website: amandacrowell.com
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Transcript
Welcome to unleashing your great work, a
Dr Amanda Crowell:podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you.
Dr Amanda Crowell:I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive
Dr Amanda Crowell:psychologist, speaker, coach, and the creator of the aligned
Dr Amanda Crowell:time journals. Every week on this podcast, we are asking the
Dr Amanda Crowell:big questions. What is great work? And why does it matter so
Dr Amanda Crowell:much to us? What does it take to do more of your great work
Dr Amanda Crowell:without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world
Dr Amanda Crowell:change when more people are doing more of the work that
Dr Amanda Crowell:matters the most to them? Whether you're great work is
Dr Amanda Crowell:building your own small business, or managing a remote
Dr Amanda Crowell:team at a multinational company. You'll find insight and answers
Dr Amanda Crowell:here. Today on the unleashing your great work podcast, I have
Dr Amanda Crowell:my very good friend and colleague, Jeff Lovelock. He is
Dr Amanda Crowell:an associate professor in the former chair of the Department
Dr Amanda Crowell:of Education at Hunter College's School of Education. He's the
Dr Amanda Crowell:founder of Hunter College's urban center for assessment,
Dr Amanda Crowell:research and evaluation. And for more than 20 years, he has
Dr Amanda Crowell:worked in the field of teacher and leadership preparation. As a
Dr Amanda Crowell:developmental psychologist, Dr. Long's research is investigating
Dr Amanda Crowell:the impact of developmentally and culturally responsive
Dr Amanda Crowell:teaching on school climate. He is a sought after speaker on the
Dr Amanda Crowell:topic of developmentally and culturally responsive teaching,
Dr Amanda Crowell:and is the author of the recently published, who's in my
Dr Amanda Crowell:classroom, building developmentally and culturally
Dr Amanda Crowell:responsive school communities, which I have to say I used in my
Dr Amanda Crowell:class, and it was an amazing textbook. Welcome to the
Dr Amanda Crowell:podcast.
Gess LeBlanc:Thank you very much. I really appreciate the
Gess LeBlanc:opportunity to be here. Thanks.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Yeah, I can't wait to hear all about your
Dr Amanda Crowell:great work. So why don't we just start right there. Tell me a
Dr Amanda Crowell:little bit about your great work?
Gess LeBlanc:That's it? That's a really interesting question.
Gess LeBlanc:Because when I think about great work, my first question really
Gess LeBlanc:starts with like, what does it mean to be great? You know, so
Gess LeBlanc:I've been kind of thinking through that a little bit to
Gess LeBlanc:really think about, like, is it a, like a personal investment,
Gess LeBlanc:or the time that I've allocated something? Is it the quality of
Gess LeBlanc:the work, or even the recognition of the work. And so
Gess LeBlanc:in thinking about what it means to be great, it also makes me
Gess LeBlanc:think about the things that I value. And as I kind of think
Gess LeBlanc:about that, it kind of leads me down this path of identifying
Gess LeBlanc:the aspects of my life in which I want to be great in the first
Gess LeBlanc:place. And so, you know, and so as I kind of think about it in
Gess LeBlanc:that way, I kind of put myself into different categories. And
Gess LeBlanc:one is, as a husband and father first, I really think about what
Gess LeBlanc:does it mean to currently be great in that area. And one of
Gess LeBlanc:the things that I pride myself on, I can't take full credit for
Gess LeBlanc:my wife, and I've always kind of thought about the raising of our
Gess LeBlanc:two boys. In this way, we've already thought about the fact
Gess LeBlanc:that we're raising someone else's husband and someone
Gess LeBlanc:else's father. And so really, like, what is that? What are the
Gess LeBlanc:things that we want to make sure that we instill in them, so that
Gess LeBlanc:way, we make them the best husband and father, they can be,
Gess LeBlanc:you know, in the future, you know, and so we've, we've
Gess LeBlanc:thought a lot about that. And so for me, I take a lot of pride in
Gess LeBlanc:in that level of relationship, you know, that I have with my
Gess LeBlanc:sons, and my ability to kind of model the things that I really
Gess LeBlanc:want them to see as evidence of what it means to be a good
Gess LeBlanc:husband on good father. And
Dr Amanda Crowell:what's an example of that, but what are
Dr Amanda Crowell:some of the things that you wanted to model for them.
Gess LeBlanc:So time, so So one of the big things that I've
Gess LeBlanc:really thought about, because a lot of that is investment in
Gess LeBlanc:quality time. And I know it sounds cliche, but I recognize
Gess LeBlanc:more and more how easy it is to be physically together, but
Gess LeBlanc:still be not present. Physically, they'll be absent.
Gess LeBlanc:And so really investing the time and connection. And as they've
Gess LeBlanc:grown from young boys into men right now, really feeling as
Gess LeBlanc:though I have an awareness of just their journey, taking the
Gess LeBlanc:time to talk with them, connect with them, spending time and
Gess LeBlanc:activities together. But really taking that time of investment.
Gess LeBlanc:And it's been challenging, sometimes, with all the
Gess LeBlanc:different things that I'm involved in, I've made sure that
Gess LeBlanc:I've essentially kind of scheduled time I know, it sounds
Gess LeBlanc:weird, but scheduling time with family first, and then planning
Gess LeBlanc:everything else around it, you know, so prioritizing and that
Gess LeBlanc:way, I've also been very proud of the fact that I've always
Gess LeBlanc:been kind of real with them. I've been very truthful with
Gess LeBlanc:them in terms of what my challenges or my struggles have
Gess LeBlanc:been, what my journey has been like, and trying to give them
Gess LeBlanc:that level of insight into my world, but also helping them to
Gess LeBlanc:see that they're creating their own path. They're trying their
Gess LeBlanc:own path, you know, and so, helping them also to recognize
Gess LeBlanc:that whenever, whenever, wherever, that they know that
Gess LeBlanc:I'm there, that they're gonna listen not always to solve the
Gess LeBlanc:problems, but at least help them to think them through. That
Gess LeBlanc:gives me a lot of pride. And so to be able to hear that from
Gess LeBlanc:them through their own mouth, that they appreciate that has
Gess LeBlanc:been really helpful for me. And so that, in a sense is kind of
Gess LeBlanc:helped me to kind of recognize my impact in that way. And it's
Gess LeBlanc:something that I really hold dear. Something that I really,
Gess LeBlanc:really valued.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Yeah. Well, and you mentioned that you're
Dr Amanda Crowell:involved in a lot of things, which I know to be the case. So
Dr Amanda Crowell:how do you like what, what have you realized? or what have you,
Dr Amanda Crowell:you know, come to understand that helps you actually balance
Dr Amanda Crowell:that, because that is a that is, I think, a universal struggle
Dr Amanda Crowell:for people who especially want to do important work, which I
Dr Amanda Crowell:know you do, and yet want to be the best possible father and
Dr Amanda Crowell:husband as well.
Gess LeBlanc:It's really interesting that you say that,
Gess LeBlanc:because I was, I was not always good at that, I think I'm
Gess LeBlanc:getting better at it. And I really attribute a lot of that
Gess LeBlanc:growth in meeting my dad, I remember one time just really
Gess LeBlanc:trying to juggle a lot of different things, and trying to
Gess LeBlanc:do all of those things really well. And I remember just
Gess LeBlanc:talking with him, and just kind of telling him that I wasn't as
Gess LeBlanc:happy with my progress with some of my writing and some projects
Gess LeBlanc:I was working on. And then I was also concerned with my son. And
Gess LeBlanc:he just basically just stopped me in my tracks and told me that
Gess LeBlanc:I need to really think about the difference between good and
Gess LeBlanc:great. And sometimes I have to be accepting of good. So
Gess LeBlanc:essentially, it's like, you can't be great at everything. So
Gess LeBlanc:kind of pick what you want to be great at, except that you're
Gess LeBlanc:only going to be good and other things. So this whole journey
Gess LeBlanc:towards great for me has been prioritizing certain things that
Gess LeBlanc:I want to be great in at certain times. And that's really kind of
Gess LeBlanc:helped me to kind of wrap my head around this thing. Because
Gess LeBlanc:I recognize that when this this move towards wanting to be great
Gess LeBlanc:always comes out of cost. And so we have to be willing to accept
Gess LeBlanc:that cost, while at the same time celebrating our successes.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Wow. Yeah, you know, what I love about that
Dr Amanda Crowell:is the idea of like, I mean, we've heard people say, there
Dr Amanda Crowell:are seasons in your life, and it always feels really big, like
Dr Amanda Crowell:this is the season of motherhood, but like your kids
Dr Amanda Crowell:or your heat, or humans for decades, you know, it's like, Am
Dr Amanda Crowell:I done with my season of motherhood. And I like the way
Dr Amanda Crowell:that you're sort of talking about, like, right now, in this
Dr Amanda Crowell:moment, or in this month, or under these circumstances, like
Dr Amanda Crowell:I'm choosing to be great at this. And I'm allowing myself to
Dr Amanda Crowell:be good at the rest of these things. And that that can shift
Dr Amanda Crowell:and change as your priorities free up and change as well. But
Dr Amanda Crowell:it feels like it would be actually something you're often
Dr Amanda Crowell:thinking about how to pick and choose which ones to be good at
Dr Amanda Crowell:which ones to be great at.
Gess LeBlanc:Yeah, exactly. And I recognize that with my sons
Gess LeBlanc:and where they are now. So I have one in early 20s, one who's
Gess LeBlanc:a late teens, and I see the they need you, but they need you in
Gess LeBlanc:different ways at different times. And so they might not be
Gess LeBlanc:as needy, quote, unquote, or need me as much as they did when
Gess LeBlanc:they were younger. But when they need me, they really need me.
Gess LeBlanc:And they need all of me. And so it's important to kind of
Gess LeBlanc:recognize and balance that out. Because those are the critical
Gess LeBlanc:junctures sometimes in their lives, so they're trying to make
Gess LeBlanc:key decisions. And the fact that they would turn to me means that
Gess LeBlanc:I'm a resource that they rely upon. And it's important for me
Gess LeBlanc:to recognize that and to really honor that by being all in all
Gess LeBlanc:in with my attention, or with my support all in with my
Gess LeBlanc:listening, you know, and one of the things that I've kind of
Gess LeBlanc:really had to remind myself of a lot is, the same practices that
Gess LeBlanc:I found impactful in the work that I do outside of my home,
Gess LeBlanc:are the same skills and practices that I have to employ
Gess LeBlanc:when I'm at home, you know, and
Dr Amanda Crowell:my skills and practices are those.
Gess LeBlanc:So patients listening, you know, these are
Gess LeBlanc:things and so sometimes, you know, I recognize that I can
Gess LeBlanc:sometimes kind of put my best face outside of the house and
Gess LeBlanc:needing to recognize I need to turn that inward as well. And
Gess LeBlanc:so, I've really tried to practice the same kind of, quote
Gess LeBlanc:unquote, good practices, that have really helped me in my
Gess LeBlanc:consultative work and other research work that I do. And
Gess LeBlanc:really turns back home. It's the same amount of detail and care
Gess LeBlanc:that I've that I take outside to take that insight to, I think
Gess LeBlanc:relationally that becomes critically important. And I also
Gess LeBlanc:realized that if I, if home is good, and other things are good,
Gess LeBlanc:too, right? That's the foundation for everything else.
Gess LeBlanc:And vice versa. And so to me, it's important to recognize
Gess LeBlanc:that, and I think during these past, you know, during the
Gess LeBlanc:pandemic and the legacy of that, you know, time spent together
Gess LeBlanc:and really creating those bonds and reconnections were really
Gess LeBlanc:important during this time and so I'm so those are some of the
Gess LeBlanc:some of the specific things that I've really recognized and
Gess LeBlanc:leaned on that have helped me outside of the house.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Yeah. So one quick question. And then I want
Dr Amanda Crowell:to hear about the work outside of the house. But I wonder, as
Dr Amanda Crowell:you talk about being really mindful and listening and very
Dr Amanda Crowell:patient with your work and with your family. I wonder like, how
Dr Amanda Crowell:do you make it so that you can be that patient all the time?
Dr Amanda Crowell:Like, are you are you getting time alone? Like how do you make
Dr Amanda Crowell:it so that you've got the resources to be so patient on
Dr Amanda Crowell:every front?
Gess LeBlanc:So So one of the good things that I have is that
Gess LeBlanc:I because of my relationships with both my wife and my kids,
Gess LeBlanc:they are very real with me too. So not always patient sometimes
Gess LeBlanc:I'm really annoying. All right. And so they essentially are able
Gess LeBlanc:to tell me in the most loving, kind, caring way possible. And
Gess LeBlanc:you're kind of being in this, you know, and that's been very
Gess LeBlanc:helpful. Feedback is important, right? Because that's what you
Gess LeBlanc:need. Sometimes it's kind of cold water to kind of stop and
Gess LeBlanc:say, you know, this is, um, it isn't about my intent, but about
Gess LeBlanc:my impact. Or I might not intend to be a certain way. But it's
Gess LeBlanc:not about what I intend. And so if others are feeling it in a
Gess LeBlanc:certain way, and being impacted in a certain way, that's what
Gess LeBlanc:really matters. And so I can say that I'm listening. But if
Gess LeBlanc:people don't feel like they're heard that am I really say that
Gess LeBlanc:I'm President, but if I'm not really fully present, and really
Gess LeBlanc:am I. And so that's been that distinction between intent and
Gess LeBlanc:impact, and has been an important one that I think
Gess LeBlanc:through a lot, I definitely also recognize that by building my
Gess LeBlanc:relationships, I think for all of us, we see that it's
Gess LeBlanc:reciprocal. So it isn't about just me being a psychologist in
Gess LeBlanc:the house and just listening to everybody. But it's more about
Gess LeBlanc:my relationship, particularly with my wife and my kids, where
Gess LeBlanc:I can talk through things as well. So it isn't just a one way
Gess LeBlanc:by any means. And I think what's happened over time, is also
Gess LeBlanc:being able to model some of that. So modeling that patients
Gess LeBlanc:and listening is also skills that I think my sons have both
Gess LeBlanc:also developed. And so I think that a piece as well is that
Gess LeBlanc:we're able to be supportive of each other. And it isn't a one
Gess LeBlanc:way by any means. But the ways that I've recognized also is
Gess LeBlanc:that I've had to become much more aware of my own social
Gess LeBlanc:emotional needs. And in order to be more self reflective, so I've
Gess LeBlanc:recognized that self care isn't being selfish, and that it's
Gess LeBlanc:really important to kind of establish the self care routine
Gess LeBlanc:for everything that I do. And so I make sure that there still is
Gess LeBlanc:physical activity, which is a kind of a classic aspect of self
Gess LeBlanc:care. But also, I've also thought about just connecting to
Gess LeBlanc:nature kind of at the spiritual kind of in a broad way, right,
Gess LeBlanc:like spiritual needs, addressing emotional needs as well. So
Gess LeBlanc:thinking about really who I turn to when I need to be uplifted,
Gess LeBlanc:you know, and making sure to maintain and nurture those
Gess LeBlanc:relationships, but also, cognitive needs, which is really
Gess LeBlanc:more about like, how do I measure my own success? Like,
Gess LeBlanc:what do I value? What are the things that I'm really looking
Gess LeBlanc:forward to tell me that I'm doing the right thing, and
Gess LeBlanc:really thought through a lot of that. So I think it's a
Gess LeBlanc:combination of God's and recognizing the importance of my
Gess LeBlanc:kind of self care needs, but also the kind of framework that
Gess LeBlanc:I use for myself, which looks at my, my cognitive needs, my
Gess LeBlanc:emotional social needs, my physical needs, but also my
Gess LeBlanc:spiritual needs. I think that combination has really helped
Gess LeBlanc:me.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Yeah. Wow, that's, that feels that feels
Dr Amanda Crowell:right. So I feel like the point that you made, which I wrote
Dr Amanda Crowell:down, was like, wow, it's not about my intention, it's about
Dr Amanda Crowell:my impact, that feels to me like a crux, like something you have
Dr Amanda Crowell:learned and learned, again, in your professional work as well.
Gess LeBlanc:It sounds so simple, but it's, it's taking a
Gess LeBlanc:really long time to kind of recognize that that difference
Gess LeBlanc:between those two things. And for me, the impact piece also
Gess LeBlanc:leads me to kind of think about, like, what is my impact? Impact?
Gess LeBlanc:Right? And, and what do I want my impact to be, you know,
Gess LeBlanc:ongoing things. I mean, if I think about my, my research and
Gess LeBlanc:my scholarship, you know, for a long time, I've been teaching
Gess LeBlanc:people who are going to become teachers, you know, school
Gess LeBlanc:leaders, counselors. And oftentimes, I found myself
Gess LeBlanc:struggling to fill the gaps in the in the literature. So
Gess LeBlanc:filling the gaps in the textbooks we were using, with so
Gess LeBlanc:many different articles, and always kind of finding the big
Gess LeBlanc:gap of really not hearing the voice of students in the work
Gess LeBlanc:that I was kind of teaching. And I kind of thought a lot about,
Gess LeBlanc:like, what is my impact on my students, like if all of my
Gess LeBlanc:students are in a school someday teaching, and others in the
Gess LeBlanc:school had been taught by other faculty? Like, how can I pick
Gess LeBlanc:mine out? You know, like, what's the mark that I leave on them?
Gess LeBlanc:And so that's where a lot of my kind of struggle around like
Gess LeBlanc:impact really started to focus much more on what can I do
Gess LeBlanc:better to kind of fill the gaps that I've been shot of
Gess LeBlanc:struggling to fill for a long time. And I was I was in a
Gess LeBlanc:school one day, I was doing some some work in a school, had been
Gess LeBlanc:doing some work in art school, particularly theater arts, I was
Gess LeBlanc:in a classroom as a theater teacher, in a school setting in
Gess LeBlanc:the classroom. And I just had like a morning where I was
Gess LeBlanc:working on a class I was teaching for Hunter. And again,
Gess LeBlanc:just kind of like trying to find the most updated stuff to fill
Gess LeBlanc:some gaps. And I was sitting in the back of a classroom like
Gess LeBlanc:squeezed into his elementary classroom and I looked on the
Gess LeBlanc:shelf, and there's this little Tony Morrison quote, and it
Gess LeBlanc:says, if you've, you know, if you find a book you really want
Gess LeBlanc:to read, but it hasn't been written yet. Then you must write
Gess LeBlanc:it. That was like the impetus right there, right, which was
Gess LeBlanc:kind of like stop complaining and do something about it. That
Gess LeBlanc:was the point. And that's really what led me to start writing the
Gess LeBlanc:book
Dr Amanda Crowell:was, Tony Morrison told you to write your
Dr Amanda Crowell:book. I love it. Well just tell us give us the give us the broad
Dr Amanda Crowell:strokes, I'd mentioned it in your bio, but just tell us what
Dr Amanda Crowell:you do tell us like your you wrote this book, but what's the
Dr Amanda Crowell:real thrust of your work the umbrella of your work.
Gess LeBlanc:So So my big work is really trying to support
Gess LeBlanc:diversity, equity inclusion in schools. And that's really my
Gess LeBlanc:big goal is, and so for me, my practice has always been to
Gess LeBlanc:center, youth voice, and everything. And so at the
Gess LeBlanc:foundation of my work is youth voice. And that's really been at
Gess LeBlanc:the crux of everything that I do. Imagine if you walked into a
Gess LeBlanc:doctor, and before you even said anything to the doctor, the
Gess LeBlanc:doctor would prescribe some medication for you, you'd like
Gess LeBlanc:you'd never go back again. But so many times, we're all these
Gess LeBlanc:decisions are getting made about children, all these decisions
Gess LeBlanc:about policy and instruction, and all these different
Gess LeBlanc:curricular things. And nobody ever asked the students like
Gess LeBlanc:they don't even talk. And so all these decisions that get made by
Gess LeBlanc:adults who kind of presume assume, you know all these
Gess LeBlanc:different things about students, but really never take the time.
Gess LeBlanc:So me that was compounded by the fact that for a number of
Gess LeBlanc:schools that I'm in, I'm thinking about the lack of voice
Gess LeBlanc:that bipoc students have the lack of that not that gender non
Gess LeBlanc:conforming kids have within their schools, and really trying
Gess LeBlanc:to think of, well, if all these districts want kids to feel a
Gess LeBlanc:sense of belonging feel a sense of connectedness to feel a sense
Gess LeBlanc:of caring? How do you do that without soliciting their voice?
Gess LeBlanc:Like, it just didn't make sense to me the other night, I mean,
Gess LeBlanc:and the other part that I was really thinking a lot about,
Gess LeBlanc:too, was, what kinds of knowledge bases do teachers do
Gess LeBlanc:staff, administrators really need to have in order to be able
Gess LeBlanc:to move the needle in this way. And so my work, I've been really
Gess LeBlanc:interested in the work of cultural responsive teaching for
Gess LeBlanc:a really long time. But I've always felt that I've always
Gess LeBlanc:been the sort that I've been reading to meet didn't do enough
Gess LeBlanc:to really address the development of students, and
Gess LeBlanc:really thinking about their development, from the
Gess LeBlanc:perspective of developmental needs. And so I look at this
Gess LeBlanc:work in terms of what all of our students have developmental
Gess LeBlanc:needs. So for example, the need to be intellectually engaged,
Gess LeBlanc:you know, a need to feel connected and need to have
Gess LeBlanc:movement within the classrooms, and need to develop emotional
Gess LeBlanc:competence, awareness of what their emotions are regulating
Gess LeBlanc:those emotions, I think all those things are foundational
Gess LeBlanc:needs. And so for me, if I start with that assumption, and the
Gess LeBlanc:question is how do I support those needs, in ways that are
Gess LeBlanc:responsive to who children are in ways that are responsive to
Gess LeBlanc:the lived experiences. So that was really the thrust of my
Gess LeBlanc:research. And the thrust of the book was really to blend the
Gess LeBlanc:fields of developmental psychology and cultural
Gess LeBlanc:responsive teaching into what I call developmentally and
Gess LeBlanc:cultural responsive teaching it really, the big goal was not
Gess LeBlanc:strictly about classroom instruction, but really building
Gess LeBlanc:communities that employ these practices. So I've used that
Gess LeBlanc:same approach, not just in terms of teacher and leader
Gess LeBlanc:development, but also as I work with school districts to address
Gess LeBlanc:their broader diversity, equity and inclusivity goals, where
Gess LeBlanc:we're really soliciting stakeholder voice throughout the
Gess LeBlanc:entire process. So over the last several years, I've been working
Gess LeBlanc:with a number of different school districts in the New York
Gess LeBlanc:City metropolitan area, as they tried to kind of come to grips
Gess LeBlanc:with a new reality that the community that they thought they
Gess LeBlanc:had really isn't that community. And so things that they thought
Gess LeBlanc:were wonderful and great and fine, aren't really that way.
Gess LeBlanc:It's haven't been that way for a really long time. And so, a lot
Gess LeBlanc:of this work was really spurred after, you know, the summer of
Gess LeBlanc:reckoning. And after the killing of George Floyd, it really just
Gess LeBlanc:revealed a lot of things that were simmering for a long time,
Gess LeBlanc:a lot of school districts, which had to do with how bipoc
Gess LeBlanc:children and their families, how gender non conforming children
Gess LeBlanc:and families have, to a certain degree had to endure, right and
Gess LeBlanc:tolerate intolerance for far too long. Can you give
Dr Amanda Crowell:us you know, not naming any names, or any
Dr Amanda Crowell:school names or anything, but can you give us an example of
Dr Amanda Crowell:what was something that seemed like it was totally fine and
Dr Amanda Crowell:good, that was revealed to be not what they thought it
Gess LeBlanc:was through this process. So one big thing was
Gess LeBlanc:about language use. And so many students have come forward,
Gess LeBlanc:writing narratives, bringing attention to school boards,
Gess LeBlanc:about the use of racial slurs, the rate the use of homophobic
Gess LeBlanc:language, in classrooms, the way in which certain key topics were
Gess LeBlanc:being taught. So for example, slavery being taught without the
Gess LeBlanc:humanity. So rather than talking about slaves, talking about
Gess LeBlanc:enslaved people, talking about slaves at a cat as a category,
Gess LeBlanc:talking about enslaved people as moms and dads as children,
Gess LeBlanc:because doctors as lawyers who were then enslaved, right, so
Gess LeBlanc:how that approach has been taken, it became critical and so
Gess LeBlanc:people recognize that essentially, like we've reached
Gess LeBlanc:the point we're not going to take it anymore, where parents
Gess LeBlanc:who have been educated in certain school district says it
Gess LeBlanc:has to be different for My children, and it still seems to
Gess LeBlanc:be the same. And so we need to move the needle. And so that's
Gess LeBlanc:where I have been asked to help support a lot of these local
Gess LeBlanc:areas to really rethink how they address these goals. Because of
Gess LeBlanc:course, we know that things are trending. And then it's easy to
Gess LeBlanc:just kind of check the box as we try to address diversity, equity
Gess LeBlanc:inclusion. And so what I've been doing is working with school
Gess LeBlanc:districts to really establish structures, district level
Gess LeBlanc:equity committees that involved district level administrators,
Gess LeBlanc:building level administrators, parents, teachers, students, all
Gess LeBlanc:coming together to really talk through around what are our
Gess LeBlanc:goals and identifying the goals and then establishing systems
Gess LeBlanc:for addressing them. And so the work is really centered on four
Gess LeBlanc:areas. One is broadly about the culture and climate of a
Gess LeBlanc:district. And it's important to gather baseline data on the
Gess LeBlanc:culture and climate because people see culture and climate
Gess LeBlanc:based on where they live in a community and what their
Gess LeBlanc:personal experiences have been like. And oftentimes, what that
Gess LeBlanc:means is that the experiences of underrepresented groups tend to
Gess LeBlanc:go unnoticed. Or people tend to kind of say, well, what are you
Gess LeBlanc:complaining about you making a big deal out of nothing, right.
Gess LeBlanc:And so it's important to gather as much information as possible
Gess LeBlanc:about the current state of the culture and climate of
Gess LeBlanc:districts. So utilize certain certain tools to be able to do
Gess LeBlanc:that. I also have been very proud of the fact that I've been
Gess LeBlanc:able to conduct state polls in districts. So I get a real sense
Gess LeBlanc:of how students are experiencing schools, how their parents view
Gess LeBlanc:things, how teachers, administrators, right to all
Gess LeBlanc:different stakeholders. And that becomes a really important
Gess LeBlanc:starting point, to start to center on what accommodate what
Gess LeBlanc:are some of the areas that districts need to address in
Gess LeBlanc:order to advance their their broader dei goals. And so
Gess LeBlanc:assessing climate becomes one key piece, but then we start to
Gess LeBlanc:center the work on other areas. And so one of the areas, of
Gess LeBlanc:course, is going to be around the curriculum itself. And so a
Gess LeBlanc:lot of work is being done now to really look at curriculum. But
Gess LeBlanc:in order to look at the curriculum, you have to change
Gess LeBlanc:the lens through which you're looking. And so a lot of the
Gess LeBlanc:work that I've been doing is really working with educators to
Gess LeBlanc:really help them to create a difference, right? When you
Gess LeBlanc:start to look at the curriculum through a DDI lens, it's kind of
Gess LeBlanc:a different approach. And so thinking of, can you give us can
Dr Amanda Crowell:you just give us an example of that, like,
Dr Amanda Crowell:what what lens? Were they looking for looking through?
Dr Amanda Crowell:What did they see and think it was fine? And then when you
Dr Amanda Crowell:switch the lens, how does it changes what they see? Oh,
Dr Amanda Crowell:great,
Gess LeBlanc:that's fantastic. So I'll think about it in this
Gess LeBlanc:way, maybe this might help to clarify, when I work with
Gess LeBlanc:educators, and this is not my language, but it's something
Gess LeBlanc:that I lean on a lot. I tell all of the teachers that I work with
Gess LeBlanc:that their curriculum needs to be both a mirror and a window.
Gess LeBlanc:And so students need to see themselves in the curriculum,
Gess LeBlanc:but the curriculum also has to be a way for them to see the
Gess LeBlanc:rest of the world, right to be able to see beyond their
Gess LeBlanc:community they see outside of themselves. And oftentimes, what
Gess LeBlanc:I noticed is that the curriculum is oftentimes a window in some
Gess LeBlanc:settings, where there are very few kids of color in the
Gess LeBlanc:classroom. So it's really reflecting just the particular
Gess LeBlanc:standards within the classroom. And in other cases, it's a
Gess LeBlanc:mirror, but it's not sufficient mirror. I mean, that's the
Gess LeBlanc:window. And so it's limiting in terms of what they're showing.
Gess LeBlanc:And so part of it then becomes whose voices are getting
Gess LeBlanc:elevated, what stories are being told about people different from
Gess LeBlanc:themselves? How's the representation happening? And so
Gess LeBlanc:we start to interrogate books, we start to interrogate lessons,
Gess LeBlanc:we start to interrogate practices within school. So it
Gess LeBlanc:isn't just about classroom instruction, we think about the
Gess LeBlanc:curriculum, because it's also about the assessment practices.
Gess LeBlanc:And so really thinking more broadly about what are some of
Gess LeBlanc:the practices that are currently employed? And are those
Gess LeBlanc:practices impediments to children's ability to really
Gess LeBlanc:reveal their strengths to able to be at their best. And so if
Gess LeBlanc:we have more flexible assessment options, right, more varied
Gess LeBlanc:assessment tools, well, that actually helped to reveal
Gess LeBlanc:student strengths more, then by limiting in the tools that we
Gess LeBlanc:employ, if we lean heavy on certain graded things. So for
Gess LeBlanc:example, homework is highly weighted in some of the schools
Gess LeBlanc:that have been homework has been a really big thing. And so we're
Gess LeBlanc:saying homework means getting zeros. Getting zeros ultimately
Gess LeBlanc:means failing classes. What are the assumptions that we make
Gess LeBlanc:about assigning homework? Well, one of those assumptions is that
Gess LeBlanc:children have a quiet place to go home and do homework, that
Gess LeBlanc:they have sources available to them. So one of the pivots that
Gess LeBlanc:we've been making is away from homework as a concept and moving
Gess LeBlanc:towards independent practice. And so if the goal of homework
Gess LeBlanc:is to establish that a child can do something independently, then
Gess LeBlanc:why not build that into the class day? Why not build that
Gess LeBlanc:into the class period? Where if you find out that they can't,
Gess LeBlanc:there's an opportunity to help some to do some correcting?
Dr Amanda Crowell:I know so I really sorry to interrupt you. I
Dr Amanda Crowell:just really liked that because I find that when you try to have
Dr Amanda Crowell:conversations with people about diversity, equity and inclusion,
Dr Amanda Crowell:it often becomes this argument about what is whereas you know,
Dr Amanda Crowell:like, are you actually putting practices in place that that
Dr Amanda Crowell:actually disadvantaged this group or not? And what does it
Dr Amanda Crowell:mean that you're saying that and what would it mean to admit that
Dr Amanda Crowell:you are doing that and it becomes so tangled so quickly?
Dr Amanda Crowell:Whereas if you say, Well, why don't we just broaden or like
Dr Amanda Crowell:more specify what it actually we're looking for? We want them
Dr Amanda Crowell:to have independent practice, nobody has to admit to have
Dr Amanda Crowell:wrongdoing. We don't have to agree on big, massive concepts
Dr Amanda Crowell:around race and equity. But instead, we can agree well, we
Dr Amanda Crowell:do want them to have independent practice. And now from a user
Dr Amanda Crowell:centered perspective, what's the best way to get that out of the
Dr Amanda Crowell:students sitting in this classroom? So it feels like it
Dr Amanda Crowell:really centers the conversation out of the political milieu, and
Dr Amanda Crowell:into what's best for kids?
Gess LeBlanc:Yeah, I really appreciate you saying, seeing,
Gess LeBlanc:because one of the things that I've also been really proud of
Gess LeBlanc:is that all of the work that I do in buildings is really
Gess LeBlanc:grounded in student voice. So I spend a lot of time doing focus
Gess LeBlanc:groups with kids a lot of times. And so I talk with the students,
Gess LeBlanc:I ask them some basic questions, right. So everything from what's
Gess LeBlanc:your favorite part of the day? You know, what's what's, what's
Gess LeBlanc:your favorite part of school? Two questions like? What are
Gess LeBlanc:some things that your teachers do that help you to learn? And
Gess LeBlanc:also, what are some of the challenges that you have? Right?
Gess LeBlanc:What are some of the struggles? What are some of the challenges
Gess LeBlanc:that make it harder to learn in school, and utilizing that
Gess LeBlanc:information, I can then feed into the professional
Gess LeBlanc:development work that I do, one of the things that I've been
Gess LeBlanc:doing, particularly most recently, is really trying to
Gess LeBlanc:help and this is where the DEI stuff comes in as well. Because
Gess LeBlanc:oftentimes, when we think about diversity, equity inclusion,
Gess LeBlanc:it's really easy sometimes to just center on race. And, and so
Gess LeBlanc:it's important for me to really talk more broadly about
Gess LeBlanc:diversity, you know, because there's so much there's within
Gess LeBlanc:group diversity that people sometimes miss. So, so I'm in
Gess LeBlanc:schools, where we might be predominantly bipoc Children,
Gess LeBlanc:predominantly African American kids. And they may say, like, I
Gess LeBlanc:don't feel connected here, because of my religiosity, or
Gess LeBlanc:not feel connected because of my sexual orientation, or my about
Gess LeBlanc:the fact that I may have a disability, it's important to
Gess LeBlanc:really think about diversity, and also include neuro
Gess LeBlanc:diversity, you know, I might learn, like all these. So I've
Gess LeBlanc:been really working hard to kind of expand a lens of when we
Gess LeBlanc:think about diversity, because if we fall into the racial, and
Gess LeBlanc:I understand the importance, I recognize why the focus is on
Gess LeBlanc:racial equity, I get it. But it sometimes leads us to fall into
Gess LeBlanc:a trap of thinking that we've developed a system to address
Gess LeBlanc:let's say, black people without recognizing the diversity within
Gess LeBlanc:that group. And so for me, I want it to be messy on purpose,
Gess LeBlanc:I want it much more layered on purpose, a little bit more
Gess LeBlanc:complex on purpose. And so, because of that, that's the
Gess LeBlanc:reason why I rely so much on student voice to really hear
Gess LeBlanc:from them of what's going on, particularly right now, in this
Gess LeBlanc:kind of quasi post pandemic, but still kind of pandemic time.
Gess LeBlanc:We're kind of in school, right, and we're noticing, like
Gess LeBlanc:releasing, reducing some of the distancing requirements and
Gess LeBlanc:releasing some of the mask mandates, but the legacy
Gess LeBlanc:continues. And so a lot about the stressors. And we know, the
Gess LeBlanc:disproportionate impact that stress has had, particularly on
Gess LeBlanc:children living in poverty, bipoc children and their
Gess LeBlanc:families, why we understand that. And so, for me, it's
Gess LeBlanc:important for teachers to also have, as a developmental
Gess LeBlanc:psychologist, understand the impact that stress has on
Gess LeBlanc:children developmentally, and one of the big things that I've
Gess LeBlanc:been leaning on is focusing on executive functioning, and
Gess LeBlanc:really looking at the impact of stress on executive dysfunction.
Gess LeBlanc:So one of the things that I've been doing with schools, I just
Gess LeBlanc:did this a few days ago in a school is I temporarily will
Gess LeBlanc:meet periodically, I should say, meet with large groups of
Gess LeBlanc:faculty sorting large rooms, you know, 4050 people at a time. And
Gess LeBlanc:we just do a noticing activity, essentially, let's talk a little
Gess LeBlanc:bit about what we're noticing in our students academically,
Gess LeBlanc:behaviorally, socially, emotionally. What I want to do
Gess LeBlanc:is listen to the language that they use as they talk about what
Gess LeBlanc:they're noticing. And so you know, you'll hear, and it's not
Gess LeBlanc:always deficit based. So I can't say that, but oftentimes, it's
Gess LeBlanc:like they're behind. They're needy, they're, you know, it's
Gess LeBlanc:these kinds of things that happen. And so I really tried to
Gess LeBlanc:unpack that language to try to help them understand well, this
Gess LeBlanc:is how these times have impacted on the child in front of you.
Gess LeBlanc:And that we can reframe the things that we're seeing. So
Gess LeBlanc:rather than that they're needy, what they're really presenting
Gess LeBlanc:as the child who needs a lot more assurance that they're
Gess LeBlanc:doing the right thing, assurance that they're on the right track
Gess LeBlanc:assurance that if they follow these steps, they can expect to
Gess LeBlanc:be successful, because some of the behavioral things that
Gess LeBlanc:people are noticing, from my perspective is much more
Gess LeBlanc:avoidance. And so if we can really help kids to feel
Gess LeBlanc:engaged, feel connected to the material, feel visible in the
Gess LeBlanc:material feel valued by the material that they're learning,
Gess LeBlanc:they're much more likely to be engaged and therefore less
Gess LeBlanc:likely to be avoidant. And so these are the kinds of
Gess LeBlanc:conversations that I'm having to really try to kind of craft that
Gess LeBlanc:lens. So that way people are kind of interpreting the things
Gess LeBlanc:that they're seeing in front of them in a different way.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Yeah, that's so interesting. You One of the
Dr Amanda Crowell:things that you know, you mentioned and actually, it's a,
Dr Amanda Crowell:it's a major part of your book that I loved the most actually,
Dr Amanda Crowell:it was such a small, was like a tiny little it was like what
Dr Amanda Crowell:teachers can do. And one of the chapters, and it was it was
Dr Amanda Crowell:basically it was talking about the notion of always being,
Dr Amanda Crowell:always being open to being surprised by your students like
Dr Amanda Crowell:i For me, it was it was related to Piaget, I'm trying to
Dr Amanda Crowell:remember exactly how you related it to him. Maybe it was
Dr Amanda Crowell:accommodation, and so always being ready to accommodate new
Dr Amanda Crowell:information, perhaps. But I remember thinking like this is
Dr Amanda Crowell:everything for these teacher candidates and for teachers in
Dr Amanda Crowell:schools, because if you it's messy on purpose, it's exactly
Dr Amanda Crowell:what you said. Because if you are always trying to keep
Dr Amanda Crowell:yourself open to new information, then you can't, you
Dr Amanda Crowell:can't get locked in on thinking you understand something based
Dr Amanda Crowell:on your cursory review of it. And that seems to come down.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Right, like the messiness comes the the surprise comes out of a
Dr Amanda Crowell:habit, actually of listening to your students voice. Yeah. So
Dr Amanda Crowell:I'm wondering if you're talking to the teachers, and trying to
Dr Amanda Crowell:help them develop their ability to really check in with student
Dr Amanda Crowell:voice as well.
Gess LeBlanc:Yes. It's interesting that you say that,
Gess LeBlanc:because right now, and I think context matters so much, right.
Gess LeBlanc:So we're now at a time of year where teachers are now
Gess LeBlanc:concerned, and rightly so about end of year assessments. So
Gess LeBlanc:whether standardized tests all those things, at the same time,
Gess LeBlanc:recognizing that there were there was, there were learning
Gess LeBlanc:gaps, there was interrupted instruction. And so there's
Gess LeBlanc:always that pressure to kind of backfill, so almost teach two
Gess LeBlanc:years of content in one year, because of gaps that are
Gess LeBlanc:present, right. And so what happens, then, as a result of
Gess LeBlanc:that, is there's a kind of a heavy lien on the kind of
Gess LeBlanc:transmission of academic information point that
Gess LeBlanc:conversations around connecting with students, right and
Gess LeBlanc:supporting the social emotional needs, is almost viewed as
Gess LeBlanc:coming at the expense of instruction, rather than as
Gess LeBlanc:foundational to learning. Oh, wow. And so that's where some of
Gess LeBlanc:that pushback has been, is essentially, like, I don't have
Gess LeBlanc:the time to do blah, blah, blah. And often, in my responses,
Gess LeBlanc:sometimes, like, you don't have the time to connect with the
Gess LeBlanc:kids in front of you, like, how can you teach? Right. And so
Gess LeBlanc:it's really that pivot. And a lot of teachers are doing
Gess LeBlanc:fantastic jobs are really integrating that into their
Gess LeBlanc:practice. But I still face some of those struggles, where people
Gess LeBlanc:are really looking at it as at the expense or at the cost of
Gess LeBlanc:instruction, rather than supporting instruction. And so
Gess LeBlanc:that whole of what I have to do is kind of like that mindset
Gess LeBlanc:shift is helping people to really recognize like how
Gess LeBlanc:important that is right now, when I asked students to talk to
Gess LeBlanc:me about their teachers and their teachers caring, because I
Gess LeBlanc:really want them to kind of unpack what that word care
Gess LeBlanc:means, like, what does care look like. And sometimes they talk
Gess LeBlanc:about the flexibility, like teachers understand that they
Gess LeBlanc:have things going on outside of school, or they have things
Gess LeBlanc:going on on the weekend. So they're flexible with them, you
Gess LeBlanc:know, they're connecting, you know, those those kinds of
Gess LeBlanc:things become really important indicators for children, that
Gess LeBlanc:they matter that it isn't about the chemistry, you're trying to
Gess LeBlanc:teach me, but it's about me first. And so you have that
Gess LeBlanc:flexibility. More and more, I'm working with teams of teachers
Gess LeBlanc:who I'm working with them to have shared calendars, so they
Gess LeBlanc:can identify when they're going to have things to do because one
Gess LeBlanc:of the things that you get is that you kind of teach from in
Gess LeBlanc:your own kind of bubble, and you forget that the children have
Gess LeBlanc:like, eight of you or seven of you, right? And so I want them
Gess LeBlanc:as teachers what was a realistic amount of homework every night?
Gess LeBlanc:And you know, some of the answers like, oh, 45 minutes and
Gess LeBlanc:hours like, well, they've probably had about six hours of
Gess LeBlanc:homework every night, you know? So if we start to think
Gess LeBlanc:collectively about like, what's realistic? How do we plan out
Gess LeBlanc:things collaboratively? So that way we can. So I have certain
Gess LeBlanc:schools where teachers might do like, we're going to do math,
Gess LeBlanc:every math is only on Wednesday, it's like you're going to get it
Gess LeBlanc:in and everybody else plans around other things. So yeah,
Gess LeBlanc:yeah, I'm done with stuff like on a Friday when you have five
Gess LeBlanc:tests in a row, in terms of even taking some of those good
Gess LeBlanc:practices that people were kind of forced to employ during the
Gess LeBlanc:pandemic and not throwing them all away. And so example, having
Gess LeBlanc:Sometimes faculty will post assignments for the week on a
Gess LeBlanc:Sunday night, and everything is due the following Friday by 11
Gess LeBlanc:o'clock, let's say. And then kids have the opportunity to
Gess LeBlanc:pick what works best for them in order for them to be able to be
Gess LeBlanc:at their best to do their assignments throughout the week.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Well, and they're developing the ability
Dr Amanda Crowell:to manage their own workflow, which is especially difficult.
Dr Amanda Crowell:This is such important work and I'm, I'm just curious about you.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Are you? Is this personally relevant to you? Do you did you
Dr Amanda Crowell:have a life experience of feeling like your voice wasn't
Dr Amanda Crowell:heard in your education or that your kids voices weren't heard?
Dr Amanda Crowell:Like, how does this resonate with your own experience?
Gess LeBlanc:So my answer is yes. And yes, and so as as as a
Gess LeBlanc:black male, educated in New York, so it's an interesting
Gess LeBlanc:journey because my dad was In the military until I start, I
Gess LeBlanc:was born in the Bronx, I was in elementary school, a Catholic
Gess LeBlanc:elementary school, I think it's important to grounded in that
Gess LeBlanc:way first, when when I was in, so that's a whole different kind
Gess LeBlanc:of experience. Until I was like second grade, roughly, but in
Gess LeBlanc:the second grade, and then my family moved to the Virgin
Gess LeBlanc:Islands. So there I was educated in the Virgin Islands, all the
Gess LeBlanc:way up until is going to high school. The things that I didn't
Gess LeBlanc:see, when I was in the States, I saw it firsthand, when I was on
Gess LeBlanc:the island of St. Croix. What I mean by that was teachers who
Gess LeBlanc:look like me who look like my parents, I had an elementary
Gess LeBlanc:school, I had four black male teachers and elementaries.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Wow, that's rare. It's unusual. Exactly.
Gess LeBlanc:So had these kinds of interesting experiences where
Gess LeBlanc:I expected to be able to be successful, because I saw it all
Gess LeBlanc:around me, you know, that. I went to look like my dad, and my
Gess LeBlanc:mom, the lawyers, everybody, the politicians, our Governor and
Gess LeBlanc:Senators, all, there was never any time when I was in that
Gess LeBlanc:period of my life, where I didn't think anything was
Gess LeBlanc:possible, because like the old content expression, the actual
Gess LeBlanc:represents the possible. That's, that's what I saw and lived. And
Gess LeBlanc:then when I came back up here, when we, because of the
Gess LeBlanc:military, my dad's positions, we move back up to the states, then
Gess LeBlanc:I became, you know, one of very few kids of color in my classes
Gess LeBlanc:when I was in high school. And so I just shifted automatically
Gess LeBlanc:from being in a space where kind of I didn't, where race wasn't
Gess LeBlanc:sailing it into being in a space where was really sailing all
Gess LeBlanc:over again. And I started to really recognize the gaps in my
Gess LeBlanc:instruction, or I got to see how my race served a certain purpose
Gess LeBlanc:in the classroom. So for example, it was not uncommon
Gess LeBlanc:when conversations around black people came up, it was kind of
Gess LeBlanc:like, what do black people think just, you know, we're needing to
Gess LeBlanc:kind of buy time I got to like my junior in high school, I
Gess LeBlanc:actually stopped one time sarcastically so Oh, we just had
Gess LeBlanc:a meeting. And this is what happened so many times. And that
Gess LeBlanc:kind of stuck with me. And then when I went away to college, I
Gess LeBlanc:went to Cornell. And when I went to Cornell, I remember
Gess LeBlanc:purposefully really trying to seek out, you know, people look
Gess LeBlanc:like me and connecting I, you know, I stayed in a dorm, you
Gess LeBlanc:know, all those things to ensure that that community was much
Gess LeBlanc:more like the community that had kind of given me comfort, in my
Gess LeBlanc:earlier formative years. But I've always had this kind of
Gess LeBlanc:sensitivity to not feeling visible or valued by the things
Gess LeBlanc:that I was taught. So even throughout my graduate
Gess LeBlanc:education, as a psychologist, it was always about, like, what are
Gess LeBlanc:the voices being silenced? What are the norms that we're using
Gess LeBlanc:to establish these theories, all of those things have kind of
Gess LeBlanc:always kind of stuck with me. And I kind of took that into the
Gess LeBlanc:work, the practice that I do, you know, within schools is just
Gess LeBlanc:like valuing the voice of the people in front of you. And
Gess LeBlanc:that's really been the through line all the time, all the way
Gess LeBlanc:through, also to recognize and value people as experts in
Gess LeBlanc:themselves as parents, as experts in their children, you
Gess LeBlanc:know, really listening those like, like Louis MO says,
Gess LeBlanc:talking about funds of knowledge, you know, really
Gess LeBlanc:thinking about how much you miss by not asking those kinds of
Gess LeBlanc:questions, you know, and so we were able to improve my
Gess LeBlanc:practice, it was much more about really recognizing, like, what
Gess LeBlanc:would just happen if I just closed my mouth and listened?
Gess LeBlanc:You know, what, what's the value? You know, and that kind
Gess LeBlanc:of that quiet contemplation and listening has been very, very
Gess LeBlanc:helpful for me, in terms of thinking about myself as a
Gess LeBlanc:parent, as a husband, myself as a, as a scholar, myself as a
Gess LeBlanc:practitioner, you know, all those things have been very,
Gess LeBlanc:very helpful for me, but it's been such a learning journey.
Gess LeBlanc:And that's been the piece that's been the most motivating,
Gess LeBlanc:because I've recognized that
Gess LeBlanc:no problem. Sure, yeah. And one of the things that I've
Gess LeBlanc:recognized is that I learned a lot by listening. That that's
Gess LeBlanc:been very, very helpful for me. So learning about as a
Gess LeBlanc:developmental psychologist, you know, we've read all the books,
Gess LeBlanc:we've got all the you know, we've got that level of
Gess LeBlanc:knowledge. But then really understanding youth
Gess LeBlanc:understanding their experiences, their lived experiences. And I
Gess LeBlanc:can't say that I have like full knowledge, but it's really the
Gess LeBlanc:process of seeking to understand that's been the most valuable.
Gess LeBlanc:It's really that time. It's helped me to build relationships
Gess LeBlanc:with the students in the schools where I work, because they
Gess LeBlanc:recognize that here's an adult taking the time to really listen
Gess LeBlanc:to actively listen, I take tons of notes, you know, and I
Gess LeBlanc:provide a lot of feedback to the schools. One of the practices
Gess LeBlanc:that I'm really proud of, too, is that the, the leaders of the
Gess LeBlanc:buildings where I work, we usually will launch the school
Gess LeBlanc:year by talking about the things that the students have raised in
Gess LeBlanc:the prior year and say, Come based on student feedback. Here
Gess LeBlanc:are some changes that we're making. And so it's been really
Gess LeBlanc:helpful for me because I also want students to feel that it's
Gess LeBlanc:just not about that you're talking but that there's action
Gess LeBlanc:As a result of it, and so I really want to reinforce the
Gess LeBlanc:importance of that advocacy. You know, and it's been great, you
Gess LeBlanc:know, a byproduct of me working in the schools is unfortunately,
Gess LeBlanc:oftentimes I am the only black male in the school, ma'am. It's
Gess LeBlanc:not uncommon. And so I've also found that particularly for
Gess LeBlanc:children of color, they tend to kind of we spend a lot of time
Gess LeBlanc:talking, we have a chance to really talk and connect. And my
Gess LeBlanc:work with a broader district equity teams as well, with
Gess LeBlanc:students on those committees, we've had a chance to connect.
Gess LeBlanc:So it's been very, very helpful for me to really have a real
Gess LeBlanc:kind of on the ground understanding of, of how
Gess LeBlanc:children kind of dig living these times, and how important
Gess LeBlanc:it is to have that information, inform instructional practices,
Gess LeBlanc:informed decision making at the leadership level. Because
Gess LeBlanc:ultimately, I think about education, kind of like if I was
Gess LeBlanc:running a business, if I want to have a business be successful, I
Gess LeBlanc:kind of want to know my customers think. And so right
Gess LeBlanc:now, it's a similar thing, I think it's important that we
Gess LeBlanc:know how students are experiencing school because
Gess LeBlanc:that's really the only way that we can advance any of our dei
Gess LeBlanc:goals.
Dr Amanda Crowell:I think it's just a beautiful and rare skill
Dr Amanda Crowell:that you have centering the voice of other people at the
Dr Amanda Crowell:center of your work. So I just really appreciate that. And I
Dr Amanda Crowell:really appreciate you. And I bet that there are people who are
Dr Amanda Crowell:hoping that you might be able to help them in their school with
Dr Amanda Crowell:some of this. So if somebody wanted to get to know a little
Dr Amanda Crowell:bit more about you, or see what it's like to work with you, how
Dr Amanda Crowell:would they go about doing that?
Gess LeBlanc:The best way to learn about me and my approach,
Gess LeBlanc:I think is through my book, I think my book gives a good
Gess LeBlanc:indication of my approach, and also my philosophy of how I go
Gess LeBlanc:about centering the voice of students. I think in the book, I
Gess LeBlanc:also provide some insight into the ways in which we can think
Gess LeBlanc:about the implications not just at the classroom level, but also
Gess LeBlanc:at the building level. And in my book, I also do make a
Gess LeBlanc:connection between my work and the broader work that I do to
Gess LeBlanc:address issues related to diversity, equity and inclusion,
Gess LeBlanc:with some lessons learned baked in there, so So I would
Gess LeBlanc:recommend if you're interested in learning a little bit more
Gess LeBlanc:about my approach in my work, I think the book is a great place
Gess LeBlanc:to start. I'm also available to suggest the blanc@gmail.com is a
Gess LeBlanc:way that people have been reaching out to me. So I've been
Gess LeBlanc:hearing from people utilizing the book, we've already been
Gess LeBlanc:connecting with some of them about possible professional
Gess LeBlanc:development opportunities. The book is also a collaboration
Gess LeBlanc:with an organization called Youth Communication and Youth
Gess LeBlanc:Communication. And I have also been providing professional
Gess LeBlanc:development services in the past. And we've been presenting
Gess LeBlanc:at conferences as well utilizing components of the book. And so
Gess LeBlanc:working with youth communications, and Youth
Gess LeBlanc:Communication has a long history of providing professional
Gess LeBlanc:development support. And so sometimes I can connect
Gess LeBlanc:individuals with Youth Communication, if it's specific
Gess LeBlanc:things that that they're pretty good at, or we work
Gess LeBlanc:collaboratively together. And I'm also available via LinkedIn.
Gess LeBlanc:And so people have been reaching out that way as well just to
Gess LeBlanc:stay connected. And so I'm happy to reach out or be connected to
Gess LeBlanc:anybody who's interested in the book or learning more about my
Gess LeBlanc:work, or if I can provide any support, either at the classroom
Gess LeBlanc:level or at the building level. So I look forward to being
Gess LeBlanc:connected with people who are interested in connecting with me
Gess LeBlanc:in the future. That's great.
Dr Amanda Crowell:So I will put a link to the book in the show
Dr Amanda Crowell:notes, and to your email address and to your LinkedIn. And I just
Dr Amanda Crowell:really, you know, I really appreciate the time that you've
Dr Amanda Crowell:taken, we've had a few technical issues. So if your patience has
Dr Amanda Crowell:been, I'm sure taxed a little bit. So I really appreciate it.
Dr Amanda Crowell:And I just want to add my own personal recommendation that
Dr Amanda Crowell:anybody who's thinking about schools and or even if you have
Dr Amanda Crowell:children in schools, just as book is is just a really great
Dr Amanda Crowell:way to understand the broader context of urban schools and the
Dr Amanda Crowell:lived experiences of students in schools where their needs are
Dr Amanda Crowell:sometimes met well and sometimes met less well. So it's a truly
Dr Amanda Crowell:remarkable book. You did a great job. Thank you so much for
Dr Amanda Crowell:taking the time to be on the podcast.
Gess LeBlanc:Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you so much for
Gess LeBlanc:the opportunity. You know, I'm passionate about this work. I
Gess LeBlanc:hope that passion came through. George is talking about the
Gess LeBlanc:works. And so thank you again. Thank you, man for the
Gess LeBlanc:opportunity. Really appreciate it.
Dr Amanda Crowell:Thank you. Thank you for joining me today
Dr Amanda Crowell:on the unleashing your great work podcast. If you liked what
Dr Amanda Crowell:you heard, please subscribe and leave a five star review. And
Dr Amanda Crowell:hey, don't forget to check out the Allied tank journal. You
Dr Amanda Crowell:need support to get started, stay at it and unleash your
Dr Amanda Crowell:great work out into the world. See you next time.
